245 - We asked AI to interview us...

[00:00:00] Caroline: Welcome to Growing Steady, the show where we help online creators like you build a calm business, one that's predictable, profitable, and peaceful. We're your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an unboring business coaching program, and Teachery, an online course platform for designers. Join us each week as we help you reach your business goals without sacrificing your well being in the process. Slow and steady is the way we do things around here, baby.

[00:00:29] Jason: All right, cinnamon rollers, that's you. Let's get into the show. We are here on our podcast, and we are ready to send words to you through an electronic device.

[00:00:45] Caroline: Yeah, we're not... 

[00:00:47] Jason: Listening to, which is absolutely wild. Gosh.

[00:00:52] Caroline: We're both.

[00:00:52] Jason: We all.

[00:00:52] Caroline: Each other.

[00:00:53] Jason: We all just have our own radio stations now. Like, you just, like you just tune into us in your car. You're just driving. You're just listening to us but...

[00:00:59] Caroline: Talking.

[00:00:59] Jason: So many years ago, like, all you could listen to was Hot 97. Like, that was it. Or AM radio, which was a late.

[00:01:05] Caroline: 96.1 kind of girly.

[00:01:06] Jason: Atrocious. 

[00:01:07] Caroline: Delilah, anyone? Okay.

[00:01:08] Jason: Okay, sure. No. No real big pramble tops this week other than Patty is visiting. 

[00:01:14] Caroline: My mom. Patty is in town. And so we are trying to just show her all the beauty that Portugal has to offer. She has been here before, one time two years ago. So things have changed. And so we're. She just got here, so we're just enjoying a little family time.

[00:01:30] Jason: I mean, in a city with like 38 restaurants, I think we have 42 restaurants now.

[00:01:34] Caroline: It's a big deal. Also had no idea, did not plan it this way. She flew in on Portuguese Mother's Day.

[00:01:41] Jason: Yes.

[00:01:42] Caroline: And she will also be here for American Mother's Day.

[00:01:46] Jason: Yes.

[00:01:46] Caroline: So that's cute.

[00:01:47] Jason: Yeah. Just double the Mother's Day.

[00:01:48] Caroline: Double the Mother's Day. And then this is very cute. I was just getting her settled in her room downstairs, and she was like, I have a gift for you, but I'm waiting until Mother's Day. And in my mind, I was like, why are you giving me a gift on Mother's Day? And I was like, because I'm a mother? And she was like, yeah.

[00:02:02] Jason: Wow, that's thoughtful.

[00:02:06] Caroline: That's cute.

[00:02:07] Jason: That is thoughtful.

[00:02:07] Caroline: That was cute.

[00:02:08] Jason: Geez. I have a whole new thing I have to put on my calendar to get ready for.

[00:02:12] Caroline: I like how that cute story turned into, God, I got one more thing to do. 

[00:02:16] Jason: It's another task.

[00:02:16] Caroline: Buddy, here's the beauty of you marrying me.

[00:02:18] Jason: Right.

[00:02:19] Caroline: You think I'm going to remember it's Mother's Day?

[00:02:20] Jason: No, it's great. 

[00:02:22] Caroline: That's right.

[00:02:22] Jason: You will forget. Fantastic. Yeah, that's it. We don't have much to premble about this week, but we do have kind of an interesting episode. You may already know by the title.

[00:02:30] Caroline: It's a Jason powered episode. So just a little inside baseball here. I normally come up with the podcast episode titles. As many of you who are longtime listeners will know that, like, Jason takes the lead on Teachery now and I take the lead on WAIM. So that makes sense. Jason came to me and he's like, I have an idea. I was like, okay, what's your idea? And explain to the people you've been sitting on this one for a while. 

[00:02:50] Jason: Well, I have...

[00:02:51] Caroline: It's not groundbreaking, but...

[00:02:52] Jason: No, I... I had this idea actually to start a podcast where I have a co host, but the co host is AI.

[00:02:58] Caroline: Right, right.

[00:02:59] Jason: And so to train AI everything about my business that it could possibly know and then have it kind of be my partner in working on my business as a podcast co host.

[00:03:08] Caroline: Yeah. And like asking you thoughtful questions. And again, to be clear, this is not like to trick anyone into.

[00:03:13] Jason: No, no, no. It's to fully say, like, this is an AI podcast with an AI co host who would have a voice, who we would see if, like a personality. And like, it would literally just be kind of like...

[00:03:24] Caroline: An experiment.

[00:03:25] Jason: See how it goes and whatever. So I thought about doing that. That's too much work. I don't feel like doing that right now. But when we were. I know we needed to record an episode to go up this week, and we're kind of in like a. A little bit of an in between of other things. And I was like, oh, let me take a version of that idea and let me go ahead and just like ask GPT to be like, hey, give me 20 questions based on the context that you have of Caroline and I and our two businesses and just ask me questions like, what do you think would be interesting for me to answer on a podcast? And so it gave me 20 questions, it divided them into sections, and I separated out into three sections, and then I got rid of a bunch of others. There are 12 total questions. And then we also decided to use Descript. They have an AI speaker thing, so you can put some text in Descript and you can assign speaker voices to it.

[00:04:13] Caroline: So we will be having two AI co host interviewers join us today. 

[00:04:17] Jason: Yeah.

[00:04:17] Caroline: Again, not trying to trick anyone. These are literal robots with just words that we got from ChatGPT. We will be joined by?

[00:04:24] Jason: Joshua. 

[00:04:25] Caroline: Joshua.

[00:04:25] Jason: Does not go by Josh. So don't say Josh.

[00:04:27] Caroline: Only Joshua.

[00:04:28] Jason: And Nancy.

[00:04:28] Caroline: And Nancy.

[00:04:30] Jason: And Nancy. Joshua will be here for the first half and then we don't want to overwork Joshua. So Joshua will leave and then Nancy will come in. So you will hear the AI speaker version from Descript read the question. So are you ready to jump right into it?

[00:04:42] Caroline: I can't wait.

[00:04:43] Jason: We will start in the business and strategy category. Four questions then.

[00:04:46] Caroline: Wait, what are the... all the categories? Just so...

[00:04:48] Jason: That's what I was just about to say.

[00:04:50] Caroline: Wow, that's on.

[00:04:51] Jason: So we have three categories, business and strategy. Then we have four questions. Then we have AI, creativity and content as the second category. Four questions. And then mindset and life to round it out. Four questions.

[00:05:01] Caroline: Love it. Let's go.

[00:05:02] Jason: Starting with Joshua's first question. Here we go.

[00:05:05] Joshua: What do you think made WAIM Unlimited work for as long as it did?

[00:05:09] Jason: I think it's an interesting question.

[00:05:10] Caroline: What do we think made WAIM Unlimited work for as long as it did? A couple things, I think. First of all, I, I do think that a general business principle that you and I have employed since the beginning of time of doing business together that is very intangible that permeates though is, everything that we do, we try to be super generous and like over... under promise and over deliver is basically what I'm trying to say because especially in the online product space, I feel like a lot of people do the opposite. They over promise and they under deliver and they try to go, what is the minimum viable version that I can get away with and still charge an arm and a leg and like make oodles of money. And our, like, I just, that never sat right with us. And we have a high standard for ourselves and the things that we create. And also we just love creating. And so I don't want to put something out the door that I wouldn't want to buy. And so I think the, the fact that WAIM Unlimited kind of was born out of the BuyMyFuture idea, which is already just about the most generous like idea that you can sell, which is like, hey, you're gonna pay this one price. And in the beginning it was $1,000. You're gonna pay $1,000 and you're gonna get anything I create for the rest of time. Literally the people who bought in a thousand dollars for BuyMyFuture...

[00:06:29] Jason: Pretty wild.

[00:06:30] Caroline: They have received like, I mean easily like $50,000 worth of value in products, in software, in services, and all these things. And so I think being generous Is like one thing that made it work. The evolution of what WAIM Unlimited eventually turned into. And I think we still get feedback like that. We still get feedback of people being like, I thought you were kidding about the.

[00:06:51] Jason: Right. Yeah. We, like, when we released Calm Launch Formula last year, I mean, we probably had 15 or 20 WAIM members, whether they were from the beginning or from  BuyOurFuture, BuyMyFuture would say, like, hey, is this included? We're like, I don't know what you didn't understand about anything we make in the future because there's never been anything that we have released...

[00:07:09] Caroline: To be like...

[00:07:10] Jason: We have said, sorry, this isn't available to you. So it's just, yeah, I think it's also just very hard for people to comprehend because no one does anything like that.

[00:07:17] Caroline: So that's one thing.

[00:07:17] Jason: My answer to this is I actually really think that the monthly thing to look forward to, the coaching session every single month and the value that was packed in that, I think that really kept WAIM Unlimited going and it kept people coming back. Because, you know, I could totally see being in a coaching program like WAIM Unlimited where, you know, a couple sessions wouldn't apply to me, but then something would pop up and I would get interested. Cause I'd be like, oh, I'm actually really interested in that. Like, I think next month's session as of recording this is on Canva Presentations. And I think we're gonna have a whole different audience that's gonna tune in who has been waiting for us to talk about Canva and like, how well you use Canva. So, yeah, I think the... the monthly ongoing something for someone to look forward to very consistently has kept WAIM Unlimited working as a business model and kept people interested.

[00:08:06] Caroline: Yeah. And then someone every month is like, oh, I'm so glad I paid for this thing. Right. And so I think that's a big part of it. I also think that just on a like a brand level, really leaning into the unboring aspect of like, so forever, we kind of dubbed our style of coaching on boring business coach. And early on that meant we had. We had like weird metaphors for every business thing we were teaching. We kind of fell off on that less so towards the end because we were like, just trying to pack in a lot of content. But we had this little Hoggy, this hedgehog mascot that, like, emerged organically from it.

[00:08:40] Jason: Yeah.

[00:08:41] Caroline: If you attend a live session for WAIM Unlimited, there's all these inside jokes. Jason is very good at just letting his, like, freak flag fly and his creative brain just goes off the rails. And so there's lots of like laughter and joy. And so I think from a brand perspective, embracing your differentiator. And so you and I just don't take ourselves very seriously. And we saw that, like so many people in the business coaching space, like, are so concerned with positioning themselves as experts that they devoid themselves of personality. And they think that if they use too many emojis or I mean, it's less so now, but definitely when we were up and coming, if they use emojis or if they use weird metaphors or if they use silly jokes or whatever, that somehow they're going to be viewed as less of a professional. And you and I were just like never afraid of that. We just leaned into it because I was just like, this is our personality. We're silly, we're stupid sometimes. Like, and we can teach you business too.

[00:09:31] Jason: Yeah.

[00:09:32] Caroline: And I think that's what helped us stand out.

[00:09:33] Jason: Great. Next question from Joshua.

[00:09:35] Caroline: Great.

[00:09:36] Joshua: What's a business decision you almost made in the past year that you're now so glad you didn't?

[00:09:41] Caroline: This is a hard one. 

[00:09:42] Jason: Yeah. 

[00:09:43] Caroline: We almost made.

[00:09:45] Jason: I mean, maybe for me it was continuing to have you as a co founder of Teachery.

[00:09:50] Caroline: Whoa.

[00:09:52] Jason: Just kidding. Just kidding.

[00:09:55] Caroline: Just kidding.

[00:09:55] Jason: I mean, I think we pretty much stuck to all of our plans. I know that we dabbled quite a bit with like thinking that we might have a second podcast, thinking that we might change some more topic based podcasts, like what was going on and... 

[00:10:15] Caroline: We're always floating that because we're always wondering ways to make the podcast, which we continue to do extremely consistently. Um, you know, what are some ways that we can get more juice out of that squeeze?

[00:10:29] Jason: Right. Yeah, I just, I think, I think podcasting in general, it's, it is. And we all know this. If you listen to this podcast, you're very well aware of how this works. Like, podcasting is not a good audience organic reach medium. Like, it's not gonna help you find new people unless you're doing a video podcast on YouTube where you have some potential reach.

[00:10:49] Caroline: That actually I think is the real answer to the question, what's a business decision you almost made that you didn't? We were going to build out a studio. Do you remember?

[00:10:55] Jason: Oh, yeah.

[00:10:56] Caroline: Like, we never got super seriously into it, but when we moved, we were thinking about putting a studio in our downstairs and actually doing a video podcast. And then it just became clear for a number of reasons. Number one, like, we needed that to be a guest room in an art studio. And it was just like too much to try to fit down there. Although we totally still could. But the second part was like, do we actually. We just. We had so many other priorities besides podcasting. And we were like, do we actually want to be filming the podcast right now?

[00:11:24] Jason: Well, and I think the thing that it came down to at the very end is like, do we want a topic based, like, and when I say topic, I mean like current events, not like political, but like current events in business. So we'd be like, okay, guys, like Kit just released these new features.

[00:11:37] Caroline: Yeah, basically a news. A business news podcast is like the best way to describe that.

[00:11:41] Jason: And because that would be worth doing the video, because it would be timely, people would be searching for those things. They would find it. We did a video based version of this exact podcast podcast when it first started. And yes, video podcasts were not as popular back in 2018, 2019, but it never got any organic traction or reach. And I just think it's because the topics were never focused on the show at all.

[00:12:01] Caroline: I think that. I think also it's really hard to get traction on. There's a reason why most podcasts are interview guest based podcasts and it's because you attract every single guest you have. You are capitalizing on their existing audience. And so we opted to never do guests. And so we have created such an insular world for our podcast. I think that's why people like it. Honestly, the people who like it, love it. And those people, thank you for listening. I think it's because you do feel like a sense of intimacy because we're not just bringing like some random person on every week. But yeah, I'm glad we didn't do that.

[00:12:35] Jason: Okay, next question.

[00:12:36] Caroline: We might do it in the future.

[00:12:37] Jason: Maybe. 

[00:12:38] Caroline: I'm glad I didn't do it.

[00:12:39] Joshua: When you say you want to focus more on building in public, again, what does that actually look like now compared to when you first did it?

[00:12:47] Jason: Boy, I can tell Joshua is really trying to sound like a human. And buddy, it's okay that you're an AI speaker.

[00:12:52] Caroline: Yeah. Like you can.

[00:12:52] Jason: You don't have to take those pauses. He's really taking.

[00:12:54] Caroline: That was a long pause. That was a pensive pause. Okay, so we'll give people a little bit of context if they're just kind of joining us. And also, we've only talked about it a handful of times, so it'd be easy to miss about this build in public idea and what you... your vision of that for 2026. 

[00:13:09] Jason: Okay.

[00:13:10] Caroline: I'm very slowly coming on board with that.

[00:13:11] Jason: Yeah. What I, what I would really like to do with our business in 2026, and this is specifically Wandering Aimfully, is every quarter at a minimum. That's the plan right now. So let's just say four times in 2026. I want to have us build an app using Lovable. And this could be...

[00:13:28] Caroline: For creators.

[00:13:28] Jason: This could be a tool, it could be a piece of software, it could be anything. And we don't know what those things are yet. But specifically for creators, content creators, business... creative business owners, the people who listen to this podcast and show a behind the scenes look through YouTube videos of like, what, what it's like each week to build that thing. So, like, what are we working on? Okay, this week we're working on the brand. This week we're working on the website. This week we're working on whatever. And you know, this is what we're coding and Lovable. We don't know how to write code, so we're just having an AI do it. Here's the roadblocks we're running into.

[00:13:59] Caroline: And, and really the purpose of that and showing that behind the scenes is showing creators what's possible with this new wave of AI technology and how you can use it to enhance your creativity and take ideas that you already have and create things that you've never been able to create before because you didn't have time to learn the skill of development and engineering. 

[00:14:18] Jason: Yeah.

[00:14:18] Caroline: And it's, it's amazing. Like, Jason and I talk every other day about ideas we could do and we just get freaked out because we're like, oh my God. Like, literally the, it's like the, the floodgates have opened for us and we can create anything. And so I think it would be interesting. I think people would learn a lot because they would learn while watching us, like, how to use these tools. They would get ideas for their own. And then also the value add on top of that is our audience will hopefully want to use some of these tools because it will help them, you know, do all kinds of things in their business.

[00:14:50] Jason: And just to round out my plan, so record YouTube videos, post content on Instagram, have an email newsletter list that like, updates you regularly. So really you're like, every quarter you're going along on the journey of, okay, they're starting with this idea that solves this problem. Now how do they take that from that idea to execution and like showing you, you know, all those things along the way along with, okay, like, now we've given ourselves maybe 30 days to build it, and after that we have 30 days to market it. Like, we now have to promote it. Well, what are we doing to promote it? Like, what does that look like? Are we spinning up, like a new Instagram account that's dedicated just to this thing? Are we... you know? 

[00:15:22] Caroline: And I really think that we should use collaborations, which is what the idea that I just had.

[00:15:26] Jason: Yeah, yeah, that's totally fine. I was just sharing my initial idea and. And then what I want to do is I want to sell, like founding memberships of it. And so that would be like, at a discounted price for people to join.

[00:15:38] Caroline: By the way, if you join WAIM Unlimited in our final launch.

[00:15:40] Jason: That's true.

[00:15:41] Caroline: You would get free. You would get these tools free, not...

[00:15:43] Jason: Just as a reminder.

[00:15:44] Caroline: Founding membership prices.

[00:15:45] Jason: If you join WAIM Unlimited, you get anything we make in the future at zero cost. You don't have to pay for it, but we would try to get a bunch of people to pay for it early. And then the whole thing that I really like about this idea, and that's why it's every quarter, is then we would sell the app, so then we would not sell it to customers. We would sell the entire thing to someone to own and they would take it over, they would run it and they have this fully functioning app tool business essentially in a box ready to go. And I think that depending on how it goes and if there's. And I'm going to use the word virality, but I don't mean like crazy like 10 million users. I mean like...

[00:16:19] Caroline: Imagine that pops a little bit. 

[00:16:20] Jason: Like, imagine we got like 400 customers in the quarter. Like, that's super attractive for someone who's looking to purchase a small business.

[00:16:27] Caroline: Yeah, they're like, oh, this product is validated.

[00:16:29] Jason: Exactly. And so I think like, you know, these could range in a sales price from. And I'm just throwing random numbers. This is not to assume this is what they're going to sell for, but $20,000 all the way up to $200,000 if it, if it really got some traction. So, yeah, that, that's for, for building in public in 2026. That's what I think is... is going to be the plan. But to answer...

[00:16:52] Caroline: How does it differ?

[00:16:52] Jason: To specifically answer the question.

[00:16:54] Caroline: From Joshua.

[00:16:55] Jason: Yeah, I actually don't think it differs much at all. Like, I. And I think this is a good maybe takeaway for anybody listening to this is like, the landscape hasn't changed that much. The only thing that's really changed Is like now Instagram is insanely more prevalent in 2025 than it was in 2018.

[00:17:09] Caroline: Right. I was gonna say the channels and the media vehicles have changed, but nothing about the process has changed. Which is you're just documenting. Right. Like instead of. But you are finding. I do think these days you have to find a more compelling way to package the story of what you're building. Because I would say that's the main way it differs is way back in the day we did a build diary of building WAIM. This was like the main way that we marketed WAIM Unlimited. Right. When we. Not WAIM Unlimited, but like business coaching when we were launching it. And we. The main thing that we did was a blog. 

[00:17:45] Jason: Yeah.

[00:17:45] Caroline: We did a blog and we posted a blog post every day, Monday through Friday in the weeks leading up to the pre launch, if you remember. And we created a little Squarespace microsite, blah, blah. And like that was the tactic of 2018. That worked for us.

[00:18:00] Jason: Yeah, you can, you can actually still see it if you want to. It's build.wanderingaimfully.com and it actually redirects. It now lives on our Framer website because I finally let go of the Squarespace site so we don't have to keep paying for it forever. But yeah, that was. I, you know, I love that type of content.

[00:18:14] Caroline: And I do too. And when you think back to some of our most successful marketing strategies, it falls in that category. So the build diary worked for us. Like we did get our first initial goal of I think 15 buyers to like get the idea off the ground. Then I still, I saw someone on our Instagram comment on our new reel series and in the comments they were like, I've been around since BASSSF and I just love your content. And BASSSF, for those of you who don't know, was a stupid acronym that Jason came up with but stood for like build a Squarespace site from start to finish. BASSSF.

[00:18:52] Jason: Yeah.

[00:18:52] Caroline: And it was a little YouTube series that we did where I just walked people through my process for basically creating a custom Squarespace site. And that was a build in public thing. Right. Like it's documenting my process instead of like making a tactical educational video. So the difference now I think will be building in public next year will look like more short form video content is really that's what it is.

[00:19:12] Jason: Yeah. And maybe TikTok, like maybe you'll be a TikTok business girly.

[00:19:16] Caroline: I could be a TikTok business girly.

[00:19:18] Jason: Slash mommy.

[00:19:19] Caroline: I don't have an... I'm too self conscious to be on TikTok. Do you know what I mean?

[00:19:23] Jason: Sure.

[00:19:23] Caroline: Like I've... Millennial me fits in better on Instagram. TikTok girlies, like, they're just out here just like turn on camera and like...

[00:19:31] Jason: Doing whatever.

[00:19:32] Caroline: Doing their makeup and whatever. And I'm just like, I don't know how to do that. Yeah. 

[00:19:36] Jason: All right. Joshua has one more question in the business and strategy category. Let's do it.

[00:19:40] Joshua: If the two of you had to swap businesses for a month, what would change about how you run things?

[00:19:46] Caroline: Juicy. So we're assuming Joshua means if we had to swap businesses, like I was head of Teachery and you were head of WAIM.

[00:19:52] Jason: Yes.

[00:19:53] Caroline: Okay.

[00:19:54] Jason: Would you like to go first or second?

[00:19:56] Caroline: If I was head of Teachery, I mean, I kind of was for a little bit and I didn't do a good job. You go first. I'll think about it.

[00:20:07] Jason: Well, I think we're, we're doing what I would want to do with Wandering Aimfully, which is stop doing monthly coaching because.

[00:20:14] Caroline: Wow. So now you're running both businesses.

[00:20:16] Jason: Because it's just for me personally, it has run its course. Like, I do still like getting on the calls every month with. 

[00:20:22] Caroline: Me too. That's why we're going to keep the calls going.

[00:20:24] Jason: I just don't like doing the coaching part and I don't like having to think about something else to coach on that's like foundational type of business stuff. Like, I would much prefer, you know, if I. Here's how I'll answer this question. If Wandering Aimfully had to stay a business coaching program.

[00:20:40] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:20:40] Jason: And I couldn't completely change how it ran.

[00:20:43] Caroline: You would make it.

[00:20:44] Jason: I would make it a timely monthly coaching of like, here's what I'm seeing this month that I think you should care about or know about. And it could be one app that's just like taking off. It could be a shift in, like, you know, AI that's changing. It could be, oh, hey everybody, who's got a blog? We just found out that like, Google changed their algorithm and like, everyone's saying you need to do this with your blogs now. And so, like, let's all update that thing. 

[00:21:07] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:21:07] Jason: That, that's what I would change if I like, was running my.

[00:21:10] Caroline: I would probably agree with that because I think you're right. Like, I love how evergreen our content is.

[00:21:16] Jason: This isn't your business.

[00:21:18] Caroline: Okay, well then I disagree with everything and.

[00:21:20] Jason: Fantastic.

[00:21:20] Caroline: Wow.

[00:21:21] Jason: Now your new business, Teachery. What would you do?

[00:21:23] Caroline: Okay, my new business, Teachery. What would I do? I mean, I think you're doing it. You're doing exactly... I would experiment more with marketing stuff.

[00:21:32] Jason: Yeah. Would you do it yourself or would you do what I'm doing, which is I'm outsourcing it?

[00:21:37] Caroline: I'd probably do it myself.

[00:21:38] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:39] Caroline: Because I like doing that. Well, I don't think I could create short form content for it though because it's just too intensive.

[00:21:45] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:46] Caroline: But I would more think about collaborating with our ideal customers and just have a more close relationship with using them to promote Teachery. So doing more like co... like collab videos and paying micro influencers to create user generated content for us. I would go all in on that strategy.

[00:22:10] Jason: Cool. Okay. Yeah, that's good. All right, well, we still have eight more questions, so let's get into it. Joshua has two more questions. We are now moving into the AI creativity and content bucket of things. Joshua, what do you have for us?

[00:22:21] Joshua: What's the most impactful way you use AI to help in business?

[00:22:25] Jason: Interesting. I mean, yeah, I think for, for me because I'll, I'll answer first as the person who uses AI the least out of the two of us, but I still use it is like the most impactful way that I use it is just as a sounding board constantly for honestly re... reinfor... reinforcing my own beliefs is all it is. And it's not because I'm trying like I'm ego driven and I just want someone to agree with me. It's more of like...

[00:22:50] Caroline: Sometimes I need a little. 

[00:22:51] Jason: Yeah, like I think I'm going the right direction in what I'm doing. And granted, I do know that these AIs are. They're programmed to be agreeable. But I try to be like, hey, you are a business partner who has an equal say in this. 

[00:23:02] Caroline: You're allowed to think critically.

[00:23:03] Jason: And I you to think. No, not even allowed. I need you to think critically and like tell me.

[00:23:07] Caroline: What are the pitfalls? 

[00:23:08] Jason: Yeah. And there have been a few decisions that you know, it has disagreed, but not really in that, that kind of way that it's basically said like, you know, and perfect example is when you just said like go the user content, user generated content around before because I was like, hey, we're doing Google Ads. You know, I could switch to Meta ads or I could switch to user generated content. I was like, oh, like if you, if Google Ads aren't working, I don't think Meta ads are going to be that different. So I would go the user generated content to whatever. And I was like, well, I disagree. I'm going to go with Meta ads because I already have a company that can do that, and it was an easier pivot for me.

[00:23:39] Caroline: Me and I are on the same side. Two against one.

[00:23:40] Jason: Fantastic. So that's how I'm using it as a collaborative partner to kind of make decisions or, like, help make sure my beliefs are feeling like I'm strong and rooted in them.

[00:23:49] Caroline: Yeah. Sometimes you just need to step outside your own head to, like, know and to clarify your own point. Right. I think it's really funny because it's hard for me to say the most impact because I just. I love it so much. I use it for so much. But I would say the biggest and most impactful way is to help me work through roadblocks when I feel overwhelmed.

[00:24:09] Jason: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Caroline: Period. So I ask it all the time, like, here. So, like, ManyChat, when I set that up, that was a perfect example. I had delayed setting this stupid thing up for two months because it felt so overwhelming in my brain.

[00:24:20] Jason: And just to be clear, you said ManyChat, which is the automation platform for Instagram.

[00:24:24] Caroline: Instagram, like, setting up all the automations, the keywords, whatever. And I don't know why that was, like, such a roadblock in my head, but finally I just sat down and was like, if you were gonna try to get X outcome, can you please walk me through the steps, step by step of how you would do that? And I tell it all the time. I'm like, I'm feeling really blocked. I'm experiencing a lot of resistance for this task. Can you work with me to try to break it into smaller pieces so that it doesn't feel so overwhelming? I do that with so many things and not just overwhelm, but it's like, hey, I'm really trying to. Okay, so perfect example is, like, I really want to create this VIP wait list for our upcoming launch, but I'm stuck on how to understand what. How the content should be different from our main newsletter versus the VIP content list. Like, can you help me come up with a strategy that makes sense in my brain for separating those two things in my head? And so in that case, I just was, like, unclear. Right. So I'm trying to get clarity. Or I'm trying to get so, really, like, steps, clarity, communication. Like, sometimes I have all these ideas in my head and I have a hard time being concise. And everyone who listens to this podcast, like, you? No, trouble being concise? Not you. And so those are the ways that I used a lot.

[00:25:39] Jason: Fantastic. All right, Producer Me in my ear is telling me we have to go a little bit faster on our answers, otherwise this is going to be an hour and a half long podcast. So we have one final question from Joshua and then Nancy's going to take over.

[00:25:50] Joshua: Where do you draw the line between automation and connection in your business?

[00:25:54] Caroline: I would say we are more connection. Like if you had to put a little slider on it, more connection than automation.

[00:26:01] Jason: 100%. I think, I think one of the things that I strongly believe, and I don't even need an AI to affirm this belief, is that people try to over automate.

[00:26:11] Caroline: Yes.

[00:26:11] Jason: Things that don't necessarily need to be automated. And I was actually doing a coaching call with one of our WAIMers recently and we, you know, he was trying to figure out if he should set up this automation, blah, blah. I was like, all right, well like how many hours do you think it's going to take you to do? He's like, oh, you know, probably like 10 more hours of work. And I'm like, great, how much time are you trying to save in this task that it takes someone to do it? And he's like, oh, it takes someone like two minutes. I'm like, okay, so how many times does this person have to do this two minutes to get to the 10 hours? And he was like, oh well, they only do this like once or twice a week. I'm like, buddy, this is a clear, like just do it manually. Like it's not worth your 10 hours. And I think that that's something where so many business owners think like, well yeah, but like so and so is a professional automation coach and they told me that I can save all this time and it's like, I think that's all good in theory, but when you're not in your exact business with your exact circumstances, like I think people would be shocked to know the amount of things I still do manually. As a person who does most of the manual tasks for our business, I log every single payment and we have 300 active paying customers for Wandering Aimfully every single payment that comes through every month, that's 300 payments. I log them in Notion one by one.

[00:27:17] Caroline: And you make sure that they're accurate.

[00:27:18] Jason: And I make sure they're accurate. And if someone's payment fails, like we have an automated failed payment system. So that is helpful. But I also send an email on top of that when it doesn't end up working after the automated thing goes through.

[00:27:29] Caroline: And so that's a perfect point. Going back to the question about connection and so this is also somewhere where you and I have talked about, like, where do we draw the line on what we would use AI for and what we wouldn't? And again, I'm not here to judge anyone else's business, but, like, for us personally, any type of, like, AI generated email response in terms of, like, I'm trying to sound like a human, but I'm actually a bot. That's just where we draw the line. Like, you're never going to be able to come across in my exact voice. You're never going to be able to sound like a human being or interact with people in that way. So if it comes to, like, frontline communication with a member or a customer, that's not something we're going to automate. If it's a task that is worth it in the long run because of its repetitive nature, and we feel confident that we're not going to spend 20 hours trying to set up the automation, then we'll do something like that.

[00:28:19] Jason: Yeah, exactly. I think that's good. All right, Joshua, thank you so much. Nancy will be replacing Joshua with the next question.

[00:28:27] Nancy: Has your relationship to content creation changed since returning to Instagram? And how do you keep it from draining you?

[00:28:35] Jason: Ooh, sounded like Nancy needed a quick little drink of water in between her question there. This is more of a question for you.

[00:28:41] Caroline: I mean, 100% it's changed.

[00:28:42] Jason: Yeah.

[00:28:43] Caroline: It feels fun again to me.

[00:28:45] Jason: That's good.

[00:28:46] Caroline: What was the second part? How does, how do you feel from?

[00:28:48] Jason: How do you keep it from draining you?

[00:28:50] Caroline: Well, I haven't been doing it long enough to really feel drained by it.

[00:28:53] Jason: I would. Okay, I would agree, but I would also disagree because you've been doing it for a month, which I think is enough time where you've posted. In the month you posted 20 some odd pieces of content.

[00:29:04] Caroline: So then I guess the answer is I try to keep it a creative exercise first and foremost. So this is. We talked about in our last podcast episode how we pivoted from kind of like the more low lift strategy of these, like, little B roll looping things and like experimenting with different types of posts.

[00:29:22] Jason: And just to be clear, again, so everybody who's not on every single episode, like, the low lift content is like these B roll reels.

[00:29:30] Caroline: It's just like a 6 second B roll clip of you doing something with text on the screen. You've seen.

[00:29:35] Jason: There's no talking. There's no.

[00:29:36] Caroline: No talking, no nothing that you need to edit. Like, it's very.

[00:29:40] Jason: You could do it in four minutes. Like, it doesn't take you any time at all. Yeah.

[00:29:42] Caroline: And so, yeah, of course, I wanted to start with the most low effort approach so that I could get momentum and to just get used to, like, breaking the seal of posting again. But. And I won't say it ever got to the place where it was felt draining because it was, like, very easy to keep up with, obviously. But the part that felt like it could eventually get draining is like, when you're not getting real results from that. This is what you talked about. You're like, well, you'd probably feel differently if you were getting good results. I was like, well, that's true. But when you aren't getting results, you're like, it doesn't even matter that this is low effort because it's low...

[00:30:14] Jason: Creative fulfillment.

[00:30:15] Caroline: Exactly. So I'm like, I would so much rather be getting, you know, 300 to a thousand views on reels and try really hard. I know this is counterintuitive because I would be doing it for the process, not for the result. And so nothing about the process felt creative or interesting to me. And so when we pivoted to this launch diary series, the funny part is I'm spending a lot more time and effort on it, but so far it feels a lot less draining because it's a creative exercise and I'm learning all the time. And for me personally, something that fuels me is learning. And so I feel like I'm building these skills. Like, I'm like, getting better at my storytelling, getting better at my editing. I'm learning new software. I'm like, I'm starting to think, like, where. Where do I need to add emphasis? How can I add little, like, keyframe zooms to, like, emphasize my point? And I love that stuff.

[00:31:00] Jason: Yeah.

[00:31:00] Caroline: So that's really fun. And also, I don't put pressure on myself yet to like, be in the stories every day and just be like, on every day. Like, I'm more using it as a publishing platform for my, like, my little short videos.

[00:31:13] Jason: Yeah. This is not a criticism. I'm just going to share it as an outside perspective. I would say when you were posting content, call it three or four years ago on Wandering Aimfully's channel.

[00:31:22] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:31:22] Jason: I think you were consuming a lot more business content as well.

[00:31:26] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:31:26] Jason: And I think now you're not.

[00:31:27] Caroline: I consume almost nothing.

[00:31:28] Jason: Exactly. And yeah. 

[00:31:29] Caroline: That's a good point.

[00:31:30] Jason: And I think that's actually, we talk about this all the time, and it's so much easier said than done because you got to break habits. You gotta do things. But I think the three years off Instagram, it really broke the habit for you. It didn't break you.

[00:31:40] Caroline: No, it broke me off the habit.

[00:31:41] Jason: It broke the habit. Which is really helpful because now that you're going back on, what you're not doing is immediately following and looking at all these other accounts that are creating content.

[00:31:49] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:31:49] Jason: And comparing yourself to them, you're like, no, I'm just here to post. Like, that's my entire goal. I'm not here to consume. I'm not here to really learn from other people. I'm here to, like, do the thing I want to do. And, like, I'm just. That's it.

[00:32:00] Caroline: And I go in little spurts of. I do go in spurts where I want to grab inspiration from people, but it's so intentional. It's like, I'm going to look for. How are people, like, using hooks in the first three seconds with, with text on screen?

[00:32:17] Jason: Right.

[00:32:17] Caroline: So I'm going to my Explore feed and I'm looking for. I can see them visually, what types of reels I'm looking for. And I go, like, hunting for, like, a mission. And then I'm. I'm. I'm looking for inspiration for my own creativity, not for, like, someone to tell me what to do. Does that make sense? And it's just, like, a totally different experience. So, yeah, I'm really enjoying it.

[00:32:36] Jason: Thanks, Nancy, for that question now.

[00:32:38] Caroline: Thank you so much.

[00:32:38] Jason: If you need a drink of water, please do it before you ask the question, not during. Thanks. 

[00:32:42] Nancy: If someone handed you $10,000 and said, create something weird and fun to promote your business, what would you do?

[00:32:50] Caroline: $10,000?

[00:32:51] Jason: I love this question. I think this is fun. This is also the last AI Creativity and content question.

[00:32:56] Caroline: I know my immediate answer.

[00:32:58] Jason: Are you doing it for Wandering Aimfully or for Teachery?

[00:33:00] Caroline: Wandering Aimfully.

[00:33:01] Jason: Okay, so I'll answer for Teachery.

[00:33:02] Caroline: Okay. My immediate answer is a stupid, crazy idea that we talked about. And all credit to you. This is all Jason. Okay, fantastic. Because who comes up with the absolutely ridiculous ideas in our family? But I wouldn't. I wouldn't waste the $10,000 on, like, oh, I'm gonna hire an agency to do this or that other thing. I would do something really noteworthy and weird. I would do something like your idea of, like, six months ago, Jason and I were both, like, man, I really, you know, we have a good little group of friends here. But, like, I really wish we had, like, a solid, like, a couple, another couple that are, like, entrepreneurial couple who, like, we get along with. Have the same sense of humor. And we can, like, go out to dinner a few times a month and, like, just do a lot of stuff together. And, like, you know, we have a couple friends here, but they live, like, farther away or whatever. And so Jason was like, what if we just like...?

[00:33:52] Jason: Can I share it?

[00:33:52] Caroline: Yeah, you share it.

[00:33:53] Jason: This is my idea.

[00:33:54] Caroline: I want to preface this by saying this is ridiculous and crazy.

[00:33:58] Jason: 100%. It's. It's a $10,000 prize.

[00:34:02] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:34:02] Jason: And it's a cash prize. And the idea is for two weeks, 30 days, whatever it is, you submit yourself as a couple. You have to be a couple, because we're looking for couple friends. The. You have to move to our little town where we live.

[00:34:15] Caroline: Basically, it's... We'll pay you 10...

[00:34:16] Jason: We'll pay you $10,000. Again, we're not doing this, but it was just an idea that I had, but I was like.

[00:34:20] Caroline: And it's funny.

[00:34:21] Jason: But also, here is all the criteria we're looking for. Like, number one, you got to be willing to wear jammies and watch movies with us for, like, four hours, two times a week.

[00:34:29] Caroline: Soft clothes.

[00:34:30] Jason: You. You do not. Don't ask us to go to festivals or parties or, like, anything late night. Don't do it. I don't do. You can do it.

[00:34:37] Caroline: You need to support LGBTQ people, and I'm not. I don't want to find out at a dinner with you six months from now that you've got some bigoted views.

[00:34:43] Jason: If you voted for Trump in either term, you're out. 

[00:34:46] Caroline: I'm sorry.

[00:34:46] Jason: You messed up. I'm sorry. But, you know, obviously, like, I don't know how far we would really. We probably would do the Trump thing, but that was just the crazy idea. So, anyway, where were you going to go?

[00:34:56] Caroline: So.

[00:34:56] Jason: And we didn't obviously do it because.

[00:34:58] Caroline: But the funny thing is, like, that idea is so off the wall. And of course, we create, like, a microsite and we do a thing or whatever, and we'd use social media to, like, seed it out there. And I think the entrepreneurial angle of, like, and you need to be a couple that works together. And so then I think the narrative of, like, this couple works together and they have a business called Wandering Aimfully. And so I do think there would be business promotion in that, and I think it would be crazy PR, and I think people.

[00:35:22] Jason: So you're just going to use this for both business and for our livelihoods?

[00:35:25] Caroline: That's what I'm saying. It's economical. It's.... it's an efficiency...

[00:35:28] Jason: Do you still want to do it? We don't have 10,000 extra. We need to make 10,000 extra dollars in the next six months just to do it.

[00:35:35] Caroline: It would be something weird like that.

[00:35:37] Jason: I just think that would be really, like, interesting to do because it would just be so noteworthy. Like, I've never seen anybody do anything like that. And like, I just think it would be really interesting.

[00:35:45] Caroline: And how many times...?

[00:35:46] Jason: And yes, it does feel a little bit weird of like...

[00:35:48] Caroline: We'll pay you to be our friends.

[00:35:49] Jason: We're like, we're like choosing people.

[00:35:51] Caroline: And also. Yeah, no, the part about it that probably would actually make me not do it is that people would have such strong opinions on, on it that, like, my, like, I'm not that far removed from my ego to be able to handle people's criticism on the Internet.

[00:36:07] Jason: I actually don't care about that at all because I've done that. But the thing I care more about is I wouldn't want it to negatively impact our town. Like, I wouldn't want the fallout of like, oh, well, what if this just puts this town on the map and like, now a whole bunch of people want to come see the town for no reason other than it was like, nowhere.

[00:36:23] Caroline: Good point. Ok, sorry, we can't do it. Bad idea.

[00:36:25] Jason: We might still do it, but we'll just tell people they have to move to Portugal. We won't say where. How about that? All right, I'm... my... I'm gonna keep my answer super, super, super short. And that is that if I had $10,000 and create something weird and promote for my business, I would basically hire someone for Teachery to like, be the front face marketing person. But their entire job would not be to, like, create courses. Their entire job would just to be like, any weird idea you want to pursue, you get to do and however you want to do it, you just have like free carte blanche to do it.

[00:37:00] Caroline: You. Yeah, you basically, you're hiring like a social media intern who has carte blanche. 

[00:37:04] Jason: But just like. And that has to be weird. Like, you can't just do like, here's how to like, design a course in Teachery. It's like, you have to be like, oh, today I'm giving.

[00:37:10] Caroline: How far is $10,000 going to go? Only a couple months probably.

[00:37:13] Jason: They got to be creative and also, yeah, maybe a couple months. That's it.

[00:37:15] Caroline: No, I'm saying that's their salary. So, like, only a couple months.

[00:37:18] Jason: Possibly. Like, they're, you know, giving away some gold plated socks for some reason, I don't know why, but that's part of it. All right, let's move into. Nancy has four questions left for us. We are moving into mindset and life. Nancy, your next question please.

[00:37:33] Nancy: How has your definition of enough changed in your business over the past three years?

[00:37:39] Caroline: Ooh.

[00:37:40] Jason: Well, yeah, I think also I'm not, I'm not exactly sure why they chose three years as the exact number for this, because the idea of enough, we originally posted that blog post in 2017, which was when I wrote that.

[00:37:53] Caroline: But I think maybe they pulled from that podcast episode where we talked about our enough number changing.

[00:37:58] Jason: Okay.

[00:37:58] Caroline: So maybe that's what they pulled from.

[00:37:59] Jason: Okay, that could be it.

[00:38:00] Caroline: So our number. So two things come to mind for me of how enough has changed. The first one being we did...

[00:38:06] Jason: Never enough.

[00:38:07] Caroline: There's never enough.

[00:38:07] Jason: Obviously.

[00:38:08] Caroline: We have talked about the nuance around what happens when your life circumstances change and you, your enough number changes. Like, I think some people think this idea, at least the way that we interpret it about enough is like, I think it's ridiculous to think that you're going to come up with one number and that's your life and that's going to be enough for the rest of your life. Like your, your needs change. And so we talked about like having kid, aging parents. Like, your number changes a bit. And so, so just quite literally the number has changed a little bit. But I think what comes to mind for me is kind of like a weird, surprising answer, which is when we had this idea about enough and we were really talking about it, we had this like, strong desire for just like a calm business. Like, we were so tired of sort of like scrapping things together for so many years, being entrepreneurs, that we were like, ready for some consistency, some predictability, some profitability and some peace. Right? And so that's where the idea of clown business came from. And if you ask me how my idea of enough has changed in the past few years, I would say that it has actually updated to like, include more nuance about the fact that you're gonna have periods of your life where you wanna be a little bit more ambitious. Like, I used to think that like, embracing an enough mindset meant, like, all ambition is just chasing more. And I don't actually believe that anymore. I think sometimes ambition is about challenging yourself, pursuing growth, wanting to like, grow in different ways. Like, it doesn't always have to be about more money. It could be just about more growth. And so, and, and, and being curious about like, oh, Is there a new frontier in my business that I can reach? And so I guess the answer for me is just I have expanded my definition to include a lot more nuance.

[00:39:48] Jason: What I'm hearing is that you just... you want a Webby Award. Like, you just want to be able to say it.

[00:39:50] Caroline: I am dying for a Webby Award.

[00:39:51] Jason: Yeah. That's what you want. Yeah. I don't really have anything necessarily to add, but I think you're right. Like, I think just making... in sharing the idea of creating an enough number, eight years ago, the intention was never, this is the forever number. But I think some people interpreted that, which is why people.

[00:40:13] Caroline: It made me feel so boxed in. It made me feel like, oh, we're these, like, entrepreneurial minded people, and we've always gotten so much satisfaction out of building things. And when the pendulum swung so far to the enough side, it made me feel like, to want anything, to want growth in any way felt like somehow an antithesis of enough. And I didn't like the way that felt. So I just. I've updated my definition to be a lot more nuanced and to realize that you're gonna, like, want to. You want to push things a little further in different parts of your life. But the. The overall idea of always having in your mind, what is it all for? To go back to our old podcast name. That, to me, is what an enough mindset is. What is it all for? And to not just go chasing for the rest of your life.

[00:40:52] Jason: Don't go chasing waterfalls as usual. All right, Nancy, your next question.

[00:40:56] Nancy: What part of your business identity are you most ready to shed right now?

[00:41:01] Jason: I think I have the stronger answer on this one because we looked through these questions before.

[00:41:04] Caroline: I like my business identity.

[00:41:07] Jason: I am just ready to be done being a business coach. And so I. And I think this is just natural for, like, me as a person and how I, like, I can't. I like to think differently. I like to do things differently. I like to kind of step out of doing things in certain ways. And it's why, like, the IWearYourShirt thing was so fun. But I was ready. I was so ready to move on from that identity because I would meet people at conferences or when I was speaking like, oh, you're the T shirt guy. And I'm like, yeah, but, like, I. I have also done other things. And by that time, I had, like, written a book and, you know, I had written for all these other places and I created apps with friends and, like, I was doing these other things, but like, that's all anybody could ever say.

[00:41:42] Caroline: Which is probably also a part of the business coaching thing. Not just that you're ready to shed the identity because of, like, the things that it encompasses, but you're just ready to shed it because you don't want to be known for one thing.

[00:41:53] Jason: Yeah, exactly. And while I think I have earned the skills and I think both of us do a great job of being business coaches, I just. I don't want to be in that bucket anymore. Like, it's not at all. It doesn't. It doesn't fire me up, whereas it did. Like, when I finally made that transition in my mind in, like, 2019, 2020, I was like, oh, no. I am actually kind of excited. Like, I have learned a lot in, like, at that time, like, 13 years that I had been an entrepreneur, and I'm ready to share all of that with as many people as I possibly can.

[00:42:19] Caroline: But you want to go back into builder mode.

[00:42:21] Jason: But now I want to go back into building things because I get so much more personal fulfillment out of building than I do out of coaching people. Like, I like the coaching.

[00:42:28] Caroline: And maybe there's a natural cycle, too, where five years from now.

[00:42:31] Jason: Of course.

[00:42:31] Caroline: You want to go back to coaching, and it's just this. This virtuous cycle of, like, I got to get back on the court, to use your sports metaphor, because sports ball. I got to get back on the court to, like, hone my skills, and then I'm going to go through a season where I'm ready to teach everyone what I learned. And. And then once I teach what I've learned, I need to get back and hone my skills. And maybe that's just the virtuous cycle forever until always.

[00:42:50] Jason: Yeah. All right. Nancy has another identity question, but this one is very different.

[00:42:54] Caroline: Okay.

[00:42:56] Nancy: How are you preparing emotionally for the shift into parenthood as entrepreneurs? Not just practically, but identity wise?

[00:43:05] Jason: She had to take another drink of water during her question.

[00:43:06] Caroline: I'm gonna take this question as preparing mentally as entrepreneurs, not just, like, preparing emotionally for being parents. Cause I think, whoa, that's a ball of wax. But, yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is allowing flexibility, because I don't yet know what it's going to feel like on the other side of having our kid here. And I already am getting fed content about people's judgments on, like, going back to work as a mom or staying home as a mom. And everyone has, like, all these really strong feelings about what your relationship to work and motherhood needs to be. And I always heard that from, you know, not having kids, but, like, once you're kind of tapped into the...

[00:43:50] Jason: Kidosphere.

[00:43:50] Caroline: The Kidosphere, you just realize that, oh, no, like, it's a very real thing. Like, people have very strong opinions about it. And so for me, I just want to give myself. I guess I want to leave my identity flexible for whatever that looks like, whatever my relationship to entrepreneur looks like. Like, I. We could have the kid here and I could be like, I literally just want to be with this kid 24/ 7. I could want that. Or I could say being with this kid 24/ 7 is actually making me a version of myself I really don't like. And I need more balance and I need work to, like, have my own thing. And I just don't know which version of that or somewhere in between I'm going to feel most aligned with. And so I'm allowing myself flexibility for that identity to arrive when it arrives, not to try to, like, have a preconceived notion.

[00:44:36] Jason: Yeah.

[00:44:36] Caroline: Does that make sense?

[00:44:38] Jason: I think so. I haven't really thought about this question at all.

[00:44:42] Caroline: Well, think about it.

[00:44:43] Jason: Yeah, I mean, I just, I'm fully aware of the fact that life is going to be different on a day to day basis.

[00:44:50] Caroline: Yes, time is certainly going to be different.

[00:44:51] Jason: And as we talked about in our how we're preparing to preparing for parenting and parental leave episode, which was a couple episodes ago, if you listen, that episode we said we are thinking about getting a nanny to help out during the day because we have no friends and family here, hence the $10,000 to pay someone to move here. God damn it. To be our friends. Just kidding.

[00:45:09] Caroline: Yeah. Like, if we're going to want to work, we need child care.

[00:45:12] Jason: Exactly. And so I think that will make it a lot easier, you know, if we were going into that and we were not at a place financially that we, that we couldn't make that happen and we just had to be like, okay, it's just going to be us and like, we got to figure it out. I think I would really be preparing to go. Well, work is like absolutely kind of like the last thing because it's like, you know, our kid first, then our relationship second, and like, you know, our lives third. And then, you know, work kind of falls, you know, after that. And I think being able to have some help, it'll kind of create a balance across all the things where it's like, okay, well, work can actually still fit because we're going to have the time and the space available to do it. So I don't think I'm actually.

[00:45:49] Caroline: But we don't know.

[00:45:50] Jason: Yeah, exactly. Like, I don't. I don't see this changing too much for me in the way that I'm thinking about it right now, because the way we're thinking about right now is we will have help. So. But I. I'm willing to accept the fact that maybe we won't find someone to help us. And I will have to put it as kind of the last Bunsen burner on our list of priorities.

[00:46:09] Caroline: The last thing I'll say is I do feel it already shifting in terms of my filter or my criteria for the projects we're taking on and the things I want to be doing is different now because I'm like, again, if I am going to spend time away from our kid, I want it to be on something that is really fueling me and filling me up. And so I think that's part of the... we talked about that in the Pivot episode, which is, I think that's a huge driver of this decision to go back to being builders is I need that. I need my time away from our child to be creatively fulfilling in order to feel like I'm filling up my own bucket so that I can come back to them and bring a better version of myself. I don't want to take time away from them and go like... 

[00:46:52] Jason: Yeah, waste time.

[00:46:52] Caroline: Go through the motions. Yeah, I'm not doing that.

[00:46:54] Jason: All right, Nancy's final question, which I think is a good one, and let's hear it.

[00:47:00] Nancy: What would a successful year look like for you in 2026?

[00:47:04] Jason: I really like this question because I'm going to chop up our answer and keep it. And at the end of 2026, I want us to listen to it and then kind of, like, react to it, for lack of a better phrase, because there's no way we're going to get it right of what it looks of, like, how it actually pans out. But I'll let you go first. Do you have an idea?

[00:47:23] Caroline: I mean, my number one and first one is success at the end of 2026 would look like getting through the first year and a half of our new parenthood journey feeling like we are stronger together than separate. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I want it to. I want to get through those hard learning curve months and still feel connected to each other. And that would be a success to me if I... If I really feel more confident as a parent and really secure and happy in our relationship, that's a success, success to me.

[00:47:58] Jason: Okay. I will. I will, yes, say into that, because I think that's.

[00:48:00] Caroline: That's very, like. Yeah, underlying. 

[00:48:02] Jason: Is a child walking by 14, 15 months?

[00:48:06] Caroline: I think so. Yeah.

[00:48:06] Jason: They are starting to walk by that point?

[00:48:08] Caroline: I think so.

[00:48:08] Jason: Okay. So I'm going to go with no broken bones. That's a successful year.

[00:48:13] Caroline: Nice.

[00:48:14] Jason: Either ours or the child's. And then because I'm yes and-ing your part of the kind of, like, family side. I'll take the business side.

[00:48:22] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:48:23] Jason: Which is my success for that year would be that we end up making the same revenue overall for WAIM as a business that we made in, like, let's call it the 2020 year or 2021 year. So it's not like the first year. So just put that in context. Is probably around, like, just under $300,000 is how much the business made. Now, granted, we should have a lot less expenses because we don't have, like, affiliates and we don't have a bunch of other things to run the business. But, you know, with Lovable, we're going to have more costs building these apps and whatnot. But that would be a success for me if we... if we generated 300,000 in revenue however that happens, whether that's, you know, getting customers for an app that we just end up keeping because we really like it and we want to grow it, whether that's selling three apps and, like, the third one is actually start, does really well and we sell it and we make a good amount of money. That would feel like a real success to me.

[00:49:16] Caroline: And my third thing.

[00:49:17] Jason: Okay, sure.

[00:49:17] Caroline: Is related to business as well, is to have some reliable source of traffic again.

[00:49:25] Jason: Yeah.

[00:49:25] Caroline: Like to have some. You know, it's like for years we had this, like, amazing traffic source from our website. From all of the time and effort we poured into creating content on blogs and newsletters. And that fueled us for years to come. So whether that's Instagram, we are. Have a reliable way of building an audience there. Whether it's YouTube, whether it's. We figure out something with the podcast, like we have some way that people are consistently joining our audience in a meaningful percentage.

[00:49:54] Jason: Yeah. All right. My fourth thing, unless you have one more. This could be the final thing, is that by the end of 2026 that we feel like we are in, like, a really good groove of, like, how our family dynamics work with having a kiddo and, like, how, you know, trying to fit health in, trying to manage work stuff, trying to, like, eat nourishing food every day and not just, like, crumple into a ball by the end of it if it was a really hard day.

[00:50:22] Caroline: Like, we're getting out of survival. Like, we're not in survival mode anymore.

[00:50:25] Jason: Right. Like, we're feeling like it's...

[00:50:26] Caroline: Thriving.

[00:50:27] Jason: It's in thriving mode. And so...

[00:50:28] Caroline: I like that.

[00:50:29] Jason: You know.

[00:50:29] Caroline: Okay, wait, I have one more.

[00:50:30] Jason: Okay.

[00:50:31] Caroline: It's family related too. Success at the end of 2026 also, to me, looks like we will have gone back to the US with our child.

[00:50:40] Jason: Yeah.

[00:50:40] Caroline: And survived that. And so we feel confident that now we can visit family with a baby in tow and that won't be as intimidating.

[00:50:48] Jason: Yeah. But then we're gonna have a toddler, so it's a whole different ballgame.

[00:50:51] Caroline: But at least.

[00:50:51] Jason: Okay. We can let it be a 2026 successful year.

[00:50:54] Caroline: If we did it at least once.

[00:50:56] Jason: Okay. I have one more thing. It is that World War Three does not happen.

[00:51:00] Caroline: Wouldn't that be amazing? 

[00:51:01] Jason: Thank you so much, 2026. Let's make it all the way through that not happening, okay? Let's just end there. I want to thank Joshua and Nancy for coming out. That was fun.

[00:51:10] Caroline: So much.

[00:51:11] Jason: If you listened this far into the episode, that means that you actually found this super enjoyable. And I would love for you to, if you're on Spotify, leave a comment and tell us, like, yes, please do more of these. This was fun to hear. Like an AI ask you questions. If you aren't on Spotify, you just want to send us an email, wanderingaimfully.com/contact, or you can just send us an email, hello@wanderingaimfully.com, and let us know that you liked this and we'll get our AI speakers to join us again.

[00:51:33] Caroline: hello@wanderingaimfully.com.

[00:51:35] Jason: Yeah, okay.

[00:51:36] Caroline: Okay.

[00:51:37] Jason: Bye.

[00:51:37] Caroline: Bye.