232 - Tools for managing self-sabotage

[00:00:00] Caroline: Welcome to Growing Steady, the show where we help online creators like you build a calm business, one that's predictable, profitable and peaceful. We're your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an un-boring business coaching program, and Teachery, an online course platform for designers. Join us each week as we help you reach your business goals without sacrificing your well being in the process. Slow and steady is the way we do things around here, baby.

[00:00:29] Jason: All right, cinnamon rollers, that's you. Let's get into the show. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. Actually, you go ahead, go ahead, try it.

[00:00:40] Caroline: Hello and welcome back to the podcast. This is Growing Steady with your hosts, Caroline Zook and Jason Zook.

[00:00:45] Jason: Well, that already was said in the intro music and song.

[00:00:47] Caroline: Sometimes things need to be repeated, Jason.

[00:00:49] Jason: Ah, nice. Okay. Welcome back to the podcast. This is Jason Zook and Caroline Zook. Growing Steady.

[00:00:53] Caroline: Okay, you don't need to repeat it three times.

[00:00:55] Jason: And this is our podcast. Would you like to do a little preamble?

[00:00:59] Caroline: What do you want to talk about?

[00:01:00] Jason: I think you have a little self discovery you want to share.

[00:01:03] Caroline: I don't like to self diagnose.

[00:01:06] Jason: Of course.

[00:01:06] Caroline: Though the Internet loves to. But I'm starting to wonder if I have seasonal affective disorder because it has been about a week, maybe less than a week, maybe six days of just gloomy gray weather here in Portugal, which, trust me, I'm not complaining. I know those of you who have been like hunkered down in winter for many, many months now. I'm not trying to say that this six days of gray is any type of hardship.

[00:01:31] Jason: Yeah, it's not just six days. Like we do get like, you know, the month of January is usually pretty gray.

[00:01:36] Caroline: It's just a little gray and gloomy. And I didn't want to admit how much it was. I mean, I always knew the weather affected my mood, but I think to the degree at which I'm feeling sort of gray myself is starting to make me wonder, like maybe I just have that. 

[00:01:55] Jason: Yeah.

[00:01:55] Caroline: I need to do some more research, I think.

[00:01:57] Jason: I have definitely noticed when it is consistently rainy and gray, you definitely are affected by it more. And...

[00:02:04] Caroline: I'm normally such a optimistic, upbeat person. And then when the weather is like this, I just don't. I lose all motivation. It's very hard for me to tap into that more optimistic version of myself which is so easily readily available to me.

[00:02:19] Jason: Something to look into, you know, just, I mean, you know, good to know about ourselves when these things pop up because then you go, okay, well, what are ways I can work through this and...?

[00:02:27] Caroline: I also think it's so fascinating about being a human being. There's something about time and memory where it's like, I'm pretty sure this has been happening every January for, like, probably my entire life. Just when the weather's cold and gray. But something about the human memory. It's like a year is just long enough that you, like, forget the patterns of your life.

[00:02:47] Jason: I think the other part is that, like, the front part of winter is like, one of your favorite seasons.

[00:02:51] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:02:52] Jason: So you think about. You're like, I don't have this.

[00:02:54] Caroline: Like, I actually love winter. 

[00:02:55] Jason: But it's like we get into January and, like, you have this new year, new energy.

[00:02:58] Caroline: And I do love the new year.

[00:02:59] Jason: Right. But then we get into, like, the reality.

[00:03:01] Caroline: It's the back half of January, the front half of February. 

[00:03:04] Jason: The back half of winter, the back half of winter.

[00:03:05] Caroline: The back half of winter is really. I gotta. I gotta strategize. I gotta come, you know, maybe.

[00:03:10] Jason: Well, we just need to go to Australia. That's what we talked about.

[00:03:13] Caroline: That's our solution.

[00:03:14] Jason: Our life plan is every January and February.

[00:03:16] Caroline: It feels like such a drastic solution.

[00:03:17] Jason: I think if it's gonna solve the issue, though, don't you want to be where it's sunny and warm and delicious out there?

[00:03:21] Caroline: But that flight is really.

[00:03:23] Jason: This is true.

[00:03:23] Caroline: But could... could do. 

[00:03:25] Jason: Well, that's something interesting you're figuring about yourself.

[00:03:27] Caroline: Yeah. I just want to share.

[00:03:28] Jason: We did do, for a little small Portugal update, we did a small staycation in a beach town. We live in a beach town, but we went to another beach town because you got to see the different sand and water to make sure it looks different. 

[00:03:39] Caroline: We have to test all the sand and water at the different...

[00:03:42] Jason: Of course.

[00:03:42] Caroline: Areas.

[00:03:43] Jason: So we went to Comporta, which is a place that's about two hours south of us. It's about an hour south of Lisbon. If you just travel straight across the Tagus river, which is right there by Lisbon, you could probably get there in like, 30 minutes. But we didn't want to go through Lisbon. We didn't want to figure out there's a ferry and, like, all that. We just drove around.

[00:04:02] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:04:02] Jason: And the highways here, absolutely fantastic.

[00:04:03] Caroline: If you are visiting Portugal and you're in a car, avoid Lisbon at all costs. I mean, you're probably gonna have to fly into Lisbon, but just avoid it.

[00:04:10] Jason: Yeah. I think this is just a general rule for any big city that just has a lot going on.

[00:04:13] Caroline: Go around.

[00:04:14] Jason: It's very difficult. But anyway, we went to Comporta. We stayed at this hotel. We went in the very off season. So the deal on the rooms was absolutely fantastic.

[00:04:21] Caroline: We love a deal.

[00:04:22] Jason: We basically, when we got there, the room we chose kind of had this, like, bio pool, which really, it's just like, there's a small lake, and they kind of carve out a space where, like, there's, like, a pool. Yeah.

[00:04:33] Caroline: And they line it so it's like you're in a lake, but under your feet is a lining so that you're not, like, stepping through algae and stuff.

[00:04:39] Jason: Exactly.

[00:04:40] Caroline: Which is, like, so cool.

[00:04:41] Jason: Yeah. So this is basically like luxury summer camp is the vibe that it felt like.

[00:04:44] Caroline: Yes.

[00:04:45] Jason: Our little cabin that we had was, like, rustic wood. 

[00:04:47] Caroline: Had a little fireplace.

[00:04:48] Jason: A little pellet fireplace, which we had never experienced before.

[00:04:51] Caroline: It was cozy.

[00:04:52] Jason: It was very nice.

[00:04:52] Caroline: But this is also... Sorry to interrupt you, but this is how I know that this is, like, what started my clue of, like, I think I have this seasonal affective disorder, because even this place, which was beautiful, and I definitely had a lot of moments of just deep gratitude and enjoyment. But I was like, if even staying at this place cannot overcome the gray weather, for me.

[00:05:11] Jason: Right, because it was also gray the entire time. Like, we didn't really have any sunshine.

[00:05:15] Caroline: And so then I knew. I was like, oh, I think the weather is just more powerful.

[00:05:18] Jason: But it was. It was very beautiful. We really didn't do much at all. We just walked around kind of the hotel grounds. We ate at the restaurant. We had a nice couple days just relaxing.

[00:05:26] Caroline: Practicing Portuguese.

[00:05:27] Jason: Yes, we did speak a good amount of Portuguese with everybody who worked there. They did speak English, but they always love when you're like, oh, you speak a little bit of Portuguese, and then, boom, they go right into Portuguese. So, yeah, it was a good time. Also, just a hot tip for anybody. You got to go to your favorite hotels in the off season because you can get such a good deal. I mean, we literally paid, like, 25% of the price of the room. In the summer, we wouldn't go there because it's just too expensive. So, yeah, it was a great place. We would absolutely go back. If you want to look up the hotel, it's called Sublime. It's in Comporta. And, yeah, it was just an interesting area. Also, we thought Comporta in itself was like...

[00:06:02] Caroline: Much more built up.

[00:06:03] Jason: Way more built up because it's very marketed well as this area. You're like, yeah, come. It's beach life. And it's this and that.

[00:06:10] Caroline: It's that. It's nature, it's luxury.

[00:06:11] Jason: It is a tiny town. This hotel is like 15 minutes from that town. And there's like one beach restaurant on the sand. There's actually two, but that's basically like what we...

[00:06:20] Caroline: I don't know, man. Maybe we missed it. I don't know.

[00:06:23] Jason: What do you mean, missed it?

[00:06:24] Caroline: Like, maybe there was more to see that we didn't see.

[00:06:25] Jason: No, we went to exactly where it was on the map. You can look. 

[00:06:28] Caroline: That is so funny.

[00:06:29] Jason: Yeah. But I think it's also like, it is very unique like...

[00:06:31] Caroline: It is very unique.

[00:06:32] Jason: It's a very unique area. But yeah, it was just a fun little trip. And as we mentioned, the beginning of this year, one of our plans was to go to a couple different places in Portugal. So this was one of our first places to kind of check the box up and go. Okay.

[00:06:46] Caroline: Explore.

[00:06:47] Jason: Yeah. So we'll let you know as we go to different places. We are going to go to the Venice of Portugal, which is a big stretch because...

[00:06:54] Caroline: It's a town called Aveiro. You can look that up.

[00:06:56] Jason: One river that they do the little boat ride throughout. But it is... There's not a lot going on. And then we're gonna go, I think to the south of Portugal to check that out because we've heard so much about the Algarve. We'll keep you posted on our Portuguese updates. And maybe out to Porto. And then also we should be renewing our residency card this year. Somehow, we are already at our two year renewal.

[00:07:17] Caroline: Can you believe that? 

[00:07:18] Jason: Yeah, yeah. And we're going to renew our passports. There's a lot of renewal going on.

[00:07:21] Caroline: A lot of renewal. Season of renewal.

[00:07:24] Jason: But let's shift into the topic of this episode because that's why someone clicked Play. They didn't click Play to hear about you, the dark weather.

[00:07:30] Caroline: If they're listening to this podcast, I think they like a good preamble.

[00:07:35] Jason: A little divergent topic there. So let's talk about this idea of self sabotage.

[00:07:41] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:07:42] Jason: And as two business coaches who see quite a lot of entrepreneurs sharing their business journeys, this is a thing that we see coming up often. And it is the thing that we did early on that I think we have worked our way out of not doing anymore. And it does take a couple interesting steps to work through it. But it also takes one big step, which is just realizing that you are doing it.

[00:08:02] Caroline: Yes. It takes, it takes being able to recognize it when it's happening. And I just want to say self sabotage always, as a phrase, felt too harsh for me personally. It's just like, like sabotaging yourself. Like, really, I think what it boils down to is just getting in your own way. It's doing things or repeating patterns perhaps that are preventing you from forward motion and forward progress. And it's really, really hard to see those patterns when you're living in them day to day. But like Jason said, as you know, we have the benefit of being business coaches and being able to see a lot of different entrepreneurs and creators and the roadblocks that they're running into. And so it's a lot easier to read the label from outside the jar, as we say. So we thought it'd be beneficial to maybe just talk about some of the most common things that we see in terms of creators getting in their own way so that you listening to this might be able to identify, oh, you know what? I do that. I actually do that. So you can start to learn to identify these things, talk about maybe why it's happening. And some reframes that we think are helpful to help you push through some of those moments and continue on the path of progress instead of standing in your own way.

[00:09:10] Jason: Yeah, I think overthinking is probably one of the absolute biggest thing that we see people run into. And I think it all just falls in the same bucket of, like, getting in your own way, self sabotage. But it's just like you, you're just like, okay, yeah, I am finally going to start posting Instagram reels and I'm going to do all this. And you go in this planning and you said all this stuff and do it, and before you know it, it's like a month later and you've yet to post a single thing.

[00:09:30] Caroline: Yeah, and I'm guilty of that. Certainly.

[00:09:32] Jason: You should have just started. 

[00:09:33] Caroline: Just start.

Totally. I think another big one that you and I ran into is you often will bump up against this idea of self sabotage when you're going through a big leap. So, like, when you are so used to, in that first phase of business, you're really in that experimentation phase. You're really in that get going phase. You're trying a bunch of different things. You're kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. And there's this moment that happens, this moment of traction that something finally starts to work. And you're then transitioning from that experimentation phase to the, oh, my gosh, this is working and I want to start scaling it phase. But it's in that little leap moment that you can fall back into the old patterns that the different things that were serving you perhaps in that first phase where you can start to sabotage, like, the skills that you actually need in that second phase. So we'll talk about some more specifics of what that looks like. But I think that's another indicator is like, if you listening to this right now are kind of like, yeah, you know, I've been at this for like a year or two years, and I felt like I was really in the beginner phase kind of getting going. And now I can sense I've gotten my feet under me and I'm ready to kind of grow things a little bit. I feel like I have a little bit more of a solid foundation. You are probably in the perfect spot where you could observe yourself getting in your own way because you're now entering this new phase where you're going to need new patterns and new skills.

[00:10:54] Jason: Yeah. All right, let's talk about the first one, which is afraid to double down on what's working. And we see this happen a lot where someone will start doing something and they're starting to get a little bit of traction. I'll give a very concrete example. And then all of a sudden you want to pivot. So, like, a good example, this would be like, I started a YouTube channel. I'm uploading every week. I'm seeing some growth in subscribers. I'm seeing some growth in views. I'm doing a call out to, like, get my lead magnet to get on my email list. And like, that's actually converting from my YouTube videos to this thing. And then like six months in, because I have not had a hundred thousand subscribers, I don't have a silver plaque. I go, I don't know if YouTube's working. I should probably pivot over and just spend all my time on TikTok.

[00:11:37] Caroline: I don't even know if it's that, Jace. I think sometimes, I mean, it could be like, oh, I'm not seeing results fast enough, so let me pivot. So... so you're not recognizing the traction that is actually happening. Sometimes I think it's like going back to what I was saying about the transition from those two different phases. I think it's like you're start... You, like, are experimenting with a bunch of different types of content. You start to see that one thing is really working well for you. Focusing on one thing, focusing on one message, focusing on one audience has started to pay off and you're seeing traction and you're seeing more views on your videos. And then I think this moment happens where either two things happen. Number one, you panic that you're going to be pigeonholed into that one thing forever.

[00:12:16] Jason: Right.

[00:12:17] Caroline: And you fear that loss of creative freedom that you enjoyed so much from, like, the beginner experimentation phase where you could really be all over the map. And so you kind of panic and you go like, oh, well, I need to totally go a different direction and like, broaden my scope even though that focus is what's actually getting you traction that you've been looking for. Or a thing happens where you actually haven't developed the muscle to do something really focused in a really almost consistent way to the place where you're kind of bored with it, like, you haven't practiced pushing through that. So your brain, which has been in the past maybe first phase, which has been so used to the novelty of trying different things, really starts to miss that novelty. And so you, you revert back to what we were saying before, which is the patterns of phase one of getting started, which is like, oh, nope, I need to try something different. That's what I've been doing for the past year. I've been trying different things. And you're not realizing that now, no, you have gotten traction. The point of experimenting was to find something that resonated and then double down on it. So now you're in the double down phase, but you just haven't recognized that yet.

[00:13:19] Jason: Yeah. I think we see a lot of people who, when asked this simple question, it would be a very direct answer, which is, hey, if you could give up a little bit of creative freedom and exploration to have consistent revenue, would you be okay with that? Like, if I just asked you that at the beginning of your journey?

[00:13:35] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:13:35] Jason: You'd be like, absolutely. I love creative freedom, but I'll give up a little bit of it so that I can have a predictable revenue. 

[00:13:40] Caroline: For that financial stability, yeah.

[00:13:41] Jason: But what happens is we see this as people get into it, like you just said, and they start doing the thing and then they're like, oh, well, this doesn't feel as creative as it used to feel. So, like, now I need to go do something else. But yet that just sets you, like all the way back at zero with trying to build predictive, predictable revenue and having like an actual business that functions.

[00:13:57] Caroline: Yeah. And I think of it like a creative freedom sandwich. Right. So picture this. That first phase that I was describing before, that's maximum creative freedom because you have no traction. So you're trying everything you have. Anything goes like, just experiment, try it all. That's max creative freedom. Once you get like a little taste of something that resonates with your audience. They really like this type of content. This is the type of audience avatar that is working for you. Okay, then maybe you narrow that scope, you narrow that creative freedom and going, okay, I'm going to double down on this, and I'm going to go with consistency and, like, focus for that middle phase. That's going to be like, phase two. And then you are going to use that focus and traction to get yourself to a place of financial stability. And once you get yourself to financial stability, then the sky's the limit again. Then you can branch out, you can take risks, and creative freedom is waiting for you on the other side. So I like to think, think of it like this creative freedom sandwich. But so many people get in their own way right at that moment where they don't realize they're in, like, the Oreo, the middle of the Oreo, and they need to just go vanilla for a while until they can get to the other cookie.

[00:15:00] Jason: Yeah.

[00:15:00] Caroline: You like the metaphor...?

[00:15:01] Jason: It's okay. It went from sandwiches to cookie sandwiches.

[00:15:04] Caroline: An Oreo is a sandwich.

[00:15:05] Jason: I know, but in... Well, okay, but in my brain, I was like, okay, the lettuce, the tomato, we got the meat, we got the bread. What type of bread do we want? And then all of a sudden you threw an Oreo at me, and I was like, wait, hold on.

[00:15:13] Caroline: Okay, well, actually, then an Oreo is better because I didn't want you thinking about lettuce or tomato or anything. I... I just wanted you to think about cookie. 

[00:15:19] Jason: Yeah.

[00:15:20] Caroline: Cream, cookie.

[00:15:21] Jason: Fantastic. I do love cookies. So this is great for me. All right, so how do we want to reframe this for people? Because I think the helpful part of this is not just telling people, hey, this is the thing that you're doing.

[00:15:32] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:15:32] Jason: Acknowledge. And now, like, go have a pity party about it.

[00:15:35] Caroline: Right. What do you do now?

[00:15:36] Jason: Yeah, it's about figuring out, okay, what are the steps to move forward from here?

[00:15:39] Caroline: Yeah. I think, number one, realizing if you're specifically in this area or this specific example of where you're doing something but you're afraid to double down because it, like, feels boring, so to speak, just remember that you're not stuck doing that thing forever. Really put your strategic hat on and realize that if it means that limiting your creative freedom for just a little bit until you use that traction to get financial stability, that is a strategic decision. And future you is going to thank you because you are going to be able to open up and try more things in the future. You're just going to be able to do it from a much more resourced place.

[00:16:17] Jason: Yeah, for sure. And I think for us, like we definitely saw this in the first like four years of our journey with building Wandering Aimfully, which is a lot of experimentation, a lot of different types of content. But really what we found is like, okay, what we've done forever, even before WAIM, which is like a very helpful, value packed email newsletter is the thing that like is our non negotiable thing. Like we have to do this forever. And like, yes, absolutely. Our email newsletter has gotten boring over the years to us, but we find ways to reinvigorate and find new energy for it and then all the other things that we do are just kind of like little ancillary add ons. But that's like the main thing for us that absolutely has to continue to be done even if it feels boring at times because it's the main driver of our business.

[00:16:58] Caroline: And don't you remember that moment? I think this was early on in Wandering Aimfully, maybe within the first year and it just wasn't making enough money for us to like really sustain it. And we had this kind of moment where we were like, should we blow the whole thing up? And I just felt so deeply in my gut, I was like, I really think that we're on the right track here. If we take a step back, we are getting traction, we are getting customers. It's not time to blow it all up. It's time to double down on the few things that are working and to just do more of it and be patient. And I really believe that that was such a pivotal moment where we wanted to get in our own way. But I just could sense that we were like...

[00:17:33] Jason: Yeah.

[00:17:34] Caroline: On the cusp of this, like second phase.

[00:17:36] Jason: And we were about to fall into a pattern that we fall into all the time, which is like, okay, it's not quite there. Let's blow it all up and start over because it's fun to blow it all up and start over. But again like that sets you way back financially.

[00:17:46] Caroline: For sure. So yeah, that's the reframe there. And I think like the kind of if, if you could turn this into an actionable takeaway. I think if you're listening to this right now, ask yourself, where are you actually seeing traction? Is it a thing of your marketing? Is it, you know, a newsletter topic that went over really well? Where are you seeing that traction? And then can you commit to doubling down on that for the next three months? Would that help you practice that muscle of maybe continuing to do something that is getting traction instead of just blowing it all up?

[00:18:16] Jason: Yeah. All right. The second self sabotage.

[00:18:19] Caroline: That we see a lot. 

[00:18:21] Jason: Habitual thing that we see is the fear of being too salesy. And this is avoiding sending sales emails, avoiding posting on social media that you're... you have anything to sell and actually like consistently telling people that you have things that they can buy because you feel like you're going to be sleazy or too salesy. And I think this is one of those things that I naturally am okay with. And it's probably because one of my first jobs was selling beepers and the first cell phones at a Verizon when I was 15 years old. 

[00:18:52] Caroline: Practice that muscle.

[00:18:53] Jason: And I just very early on learned like, hey, it's not a... like, people are... they want to solve a problem and whatever that problem is, like, you have to give them, you know, information how to solve it. So I think this is a very known thing in our space that sales emails will improve your launch results. But if you don't send the sales emails, then you're not going to have results. And we see this often with people where they'll even like, plan ahead of time and they'll write a couple sales emails. They'll send the first one or the second one and they don't get a bunch of sales. And then they go, oh, everyone hates me and they don't like my sales. And no one replied to my emails. I normally get a couple replies. I'm giving up. I don't. I'm gonna send one email at the end. And like now I'm afraid because I've ruined my entire email list.

[00:19:33] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:19:34] Jason: And I think as we're recording this in 2025, like, I think for our next launches moving forward, we'll probably just start sending sales emails every day. And we used to be on like a every other day cadence, but I think the way that people's email inboxes have gotten, you have to be able to break through the noise of all the stuff that people have subscribed to. And so sending more sales emails has never been more important. Now, that doesn't mean your sales emails have to be crappy.

[00:19:59] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:19:59] Jason: It doesn't mean they have to be gross and like, all the tactics and...

[00:20:02] Caroline: Pushy and like, you know, manipulative. Making people feel bad for not, quote, unquote, investing in themselves. I hate that shit. No, we're not doing that. But I do think something that holds people back is they think of the worst kind of pushiest sales people. And they think that just by sending a sales email.

[00:20:20] Jason: By using that tactic.

[00:20:21] Caroline: By using the very tactic of asking for a sale, they are now in the same category as the worst pushy salesperson they've ever been confronted with.

[00:20:32] Jason: Obviously, we all know that a chainsaw can be a weapon for a fictitious horrible person, right?

[00:20:39] Caroline: Sure.

[00:20:40] Jason: However, if I go to the hardware store and I buy a chainsaw.

[00:20:43] Caroline: You just want to chop down a tree.

[00:20:44] Jason: I'm just trying to trim some shrubbery around my house.

[00:20:47] Caroline: A couple of dead limbs.

[00:20:48] Jason: I'm not a serial killing person.

[00:20:51] Caroline: Definitely not.

[00:20:51] Jason: Just because I bought a chainsaw.

[00:20:52] Caroline: Correct.

[00:20:53] Jason: So just because you are using sales emails as a mechanism to tell people that you have a cool thing that you have created that can solve a problem for them.

[00:21:00] Caroline: You're not a murderer.

[00:21:01] Jason: Does not mean you're a serial killer.

[00:21:03] Caroline: Well, that's a great analogy.

[00:21:04] Jason: I'm just letting everyone know if that's how they were feeling. They're like, if I send these emails, I'm a serial killer. You're not. It's okay.

[00:21:11] Caroline: Yeah. And like, the thing that has always stuck with me that I always go back to is, which I think is so counterintuitive and funny, why we do this where we're like, oh, I'm so afraid to, like, turn off my list by asking for a sale. I'm like, you're a business.

[00:21:25] Jason: Also, why'd you build the list in the first place?

[00:21:27] Caroline: That's what I'm saying.

[00:21:28] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:28] Caroline: Let's all just be very clear about what we're doing here. This does not make you a bad person that you started an email list to fuel a business. It is a marketing channel. Yes, you want to provide free value, but you want to provide value so that you can get value in return as a business. There's nothing wrong with that. It's like, if you really think about it, you're like, well, I'm always providing value and value, and then I don't want to turn around and ask for a sale because it's going to turn people off. It's like, well, what are you going to do? Are you just going to just do free stuff forever? That's okay. You can do that. But you're not then running a business. You're just gonna... you're just having a free newsletter. That's okay. But if you are someone who wants a business, if you are someone who does want to sustain your life with a creative career, you do have to have this moment of acceptance with yourself that it's going to require asking someone to buy the thing that you have created. And that doesn't make you a bad person. And if somebody is not okay with that, if somebody is turned off by that, they can totally leave your email list. No harm, no foul. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you or that you're a bad person. And it's sort of like, yeah, just let them walk away. Let them exit your audience because the people that then stick around are the people who do and are interested in the thing that you have to sell.

[00:22:43] Jason: Yeah. So I think our first point on reframing this, like, I'm afraid of being too salesy and sending too many sales emails is that, number one, your audience is not going to read every email that you send.

[00:22:53] Caroline: So true.

[00:22:53] Jason: Everyone is busier these days more than ever. Like I said, inboxes are more crowded. And I think even if you were to ask yourself if you have been in someone's sales funnel, quote unquote, and you have gotten sales emails, maybe they're even ours. And you have said to yourself, oh, I didn't. I didn't dislike that person because they sent me 10 emails over the course of two weeks. Like, it was fine. Like, I knew they were selling something. 

[00:23:15] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:23:15] Jason: I saw that they were sending these emails. I actually kind of was interested in, like, how they were positioning this and doing it, and it was okay. And I think that if you reframe that for yourself, of, I'm going to send a bunch of sales emails during a thing that I'm launching or a flash sale or whatever, not everyone's going to read every email. And also some people, they're going to enjoy reading those emails if you put those emails out in a way that feels maybe unique or you're putting your own unique spin on it in the way that you share content that people resonate with.

[00:23:41] Caroline: And it does take practice. Right. Like, I remember, this is like 10 years ago now, But I remember when I started my newsletter, I was looking at that unsubscribe number every time I sent out an email. I was peering at that all the time. You know, I haven't looked at our unsubscribed number in years. 

[00:23:57] Jason: Yeah.

[00:23:58] Caroline: I have it because it's just the cost of doing business. It's just every time you send an email, people are going to unsubscribe. It is not... not a personal indication of you. It is not. Even if somebody... somebody really doesn't like you. Like that, they're entitled to that opinion. That's okay.

[00:24:12] Jason: That will happen. And I think, like, that's probably one of the biggest fears that we have heard that people have, and it's something that we ran into a while ago that we don't really run into anymore, is you'll get someone who writes back and is like, you're sending too many emails. I didn't sign up for this. Blah, blah, blah. And it makes you feel, as the person running your business, like, oh, no, like, I lied to this person. Or like, I look...

[00:24:30] Caroline: And it confirms, like, your worst fear. Right? You're like, you were already worried about it. Now you're like, oh, there you go. There you go.

[00:24:35] Jason: But there are, like, two or three ways to solve that situation. Number one is just write back and apologize and just say, like, oh, I'm so sorry that, like...

[00:24:42] Caroline: This was a different expectation that you had.

[00:24:44] Jason: And whatever. Uh, the second thing is that what I like to do, which most people don't like to do, is I write back and I go, I'm so sorry for whatever's going on in your life that you're feeling like you have to take this anger out on me. I'm just trying to run a business. About nine times out of 10, I would always get a reply from that someone would be like, yeah, you're right. Like, I had this thing going on. Now, that takes a little bit of a bold move. And most people aren't going to want to do that. Like, Caroline wouldn't do that.

[00:25:06] Caroline: No, but that's... that's you.

[00:25:07] Jason: But I can very much read through the lines of these messages that you see from people. And I think the third thing is that you also have the power to unsubscribe someone yourself. So if someone is not a good subscriber, your email list is a very important part of your business, and it's like, the thing that you can cultivate yourself. And if someone isn't, like, replying in a nice way and they're being angry, you have the right to click unsubscribe and remove them from your list, and they don't ever have to hear from you again, and they'll move on to something else. And so I think you should embrace the unsubscribes in your business. And I know that's hard, especially if you have a very small list early on. But if the way that you have gotten people to subscribe has been in a way where they have gotten value from you and you sharing what it is, whatever it is you sell, is just showing that you have more value to give them. It is not going to be something where you get a lot of negative replies. It's just not going to happen.

[00:25:54] Caroline: And what I want you to do, if you know that you're this person who struggles with sending sales emails and you know that this is a way that you're standing in your own way, because when you send those sales emails, the sales do come in, but you're just afraid. I want you to, for the next product launch that you do or the next promotion, you know, window that you're going to have, I want you to decide on a schedule ahead of time and I want it to be like, maybe make you a little uncomfortable, like, oh, I'm going to send an email every day. Like that scares me. I want you to set that schedule, commit to it now. And then I want you to schedule those emails ahead of time so that you don't even have to think about it when it comes time for that day to arrive and just see how that goes, see how that feels. Because like I said, practice is what is going to get you more comfortable with doing this. And let me tell you what, I bet you that if you sent three emails in your last launch and you send seven emails in this launch, guess which launch I think is going to get more sales?

[00:26:50] Jason: Just maybe, just maybe the one where people are actually seeing your messages because they're not getting lost in everything else.

[00:26:55] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:26:55] Jason: All right, let's talk about number three. This is one of the ones that our creative listeners are probably going to feel like it's a personal jab. And this is the self sabotage habit of constantly changing your branding and messaging.

[00:27:13] Caroline: And listen. To all of my branding and messaging girlies and people out there, I'm one of you. Okay? I love getting my foundation right. I love getting my tagline just so succinct and like powerful. I love... I love feeling like my brand is aligned. But this is something that I see from our super creative people in our community all the time, is they are always doing a rebrand. 

[00:27:43] Jason: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Caroline: Always. And unfortunately, when you do that every six months and you do it four times in a row, you never fully... and I get why you're doing that, right? Like you want your business to be fully aligned, you want to feel confident about it and so more power to you. I'm not saying, like, come completely stop this. I'm just letting you know what the cost is of doing that. And it's that your audience can never settle on a full, clear understanding of who you are as a business owner. And so it's hard for them to want to stay connected to your content because you're always changing. Right. And so I see this a lot. And so I think that there comes a point where you need to say to yourself, I'm going to give this more than six months.

[00:28:27] Jason: Yeah.

[00:28:27] Caroline: I'm going to give myself a year to do this version of my business. I'm going to feel good enough about it. And I can tweak a color here or there. I can... I can play around with different taglines. That's fine. But the general idea of who I am as a business owner is not going to change for the next year. And I'm just going to see what happens.

[00:28:46] Jason: Yeah, I think the rule here is, like, one year for your messaging has to stay the same, but, like, three years for your website has to stay the same because, boy, every year it can feel like a... Well, you know, there's a new template on Squarespace. It looks like this much better or like, Framer just came out and I probably should explore doing that for my website. And, like, these are all distractions from the things that if you are not making enough revenue in your business, not really going to move the needle that much.

[00:29:14] Caroline: It's true.

[00:29:15] Jason: And they're a place for you to escape and they're a place for you to stay in your creation cave, where, like, no one is going to know that things are going on. We'll talk more about that in a minute. But I think this is a place where a lot of especially creative people hide is because it's very easy and comfortable work to go back to and it feels like you're doing something.

[00:29:31] Caroline: It does.

[00:29:31] Jason: Because, like, oh, the headline changed. Oh, my logo changed. Oh, my colors changed. Oh, my website looks wildly different. And, like, it's so much better than it was last year. But yet for all the people on the outside looking in, they're like, okay, but, like, how does that help me?

[00:29:44] Caroline: Totally. And like, the thing that's so hard about this is, like, it is so easy to convince yourself that if you're not getting sales, you're not getting clients, or your business isn't growing. It's such an easy, logical leap to be like, well, it's because my website doesn't look professional enough, or it's because my colors aren't attracting the right audience member. Like, it is such an easy thing to convince yourself of. But all of us have seen business owners out there who are making crazy amounts of money. And you go to their website and you're like, what's happening? This isn't. This is ugly. This is actually ugly. And it's because they have something of value that people want. That is the most important part of a business is the value proposition, the value exchange. And so it's true, it's a little bit of tough love. But if you know that you are a person who loves to spend your time redesigning the website, loves to spend your time massaging the copy, just have a little tough love moment with yourself and ask yourself, am I getting in my own way by spending my precious time and effort and energy resources on a thing that's going to maybe move the needle a tenth of, you know...

[00:30:47] Jason: Maybe if that.

[00:30:48] Caroline: Maybe... forward? Or is it that I'm avoiding the real deep work of growing my audience or putting myself out there or networking or sending more sales emails or, you know, all of those other things that might have a larger impact?

[00:31:01] Jason: Yeah. Okay, so how to reframe this? Your audience definitely needs time to recognize and trust your brand and consistency will build that familiarity. So if you are always changing your messaging, if you are always changing the way your brand looks, if you're always changing your website, people are not getting used to that. And I think we did a really good job. As two creative people who were not really that happy with the launch of our Wandering Aimfully website in 2018, we stuck with it and we just said we are not going to allow ourselves to do the same thing we always do and like redo everything because we're not happy. This website has to last us for a couple years and I think we told ourselves like two to three years and then it actually was five years before we redid the website. And it's because the business started working, we focused on all the other things and I think we are so much happier with the current website that we have now. But it did not make a meaningful movement at all in revenue. And that is important for everyone to note that it's not going to make a meaningful movement. You just think it is.

[00:31:55] Caroline: Yeah. So remember that the tweaks that you obsess over are often quite invisible to your audience. The more important thing is that repetition and really solidifying and becoming known in your audience's mind and you really need repetition, you need time, you need patience in order to do that. So if you're one of those people right now, my little action step for you is create like a 12 month commitment and say, the business that I have right now, the messaging that I have right now can sustain me for the next 12 months, I'm going to focus on consistency. I'm going to focus on building up credibility with my audience so that I can give myself the best chance to build that audience.

[00:32:34] Jason: Yeah. Also, I'll just add one more thing. If you look, if you're the type of person who does this and you look back on the last year where you've been tweaking and playing and changing things and you don't see a meaningful impact of those things in your revenue, but the next 12 months can now be an experiment to measure against your previous 12 months of I did not change my branding and messaging, I did not change my website. I stuck with it. And now I have a whole year where I can just focus on marketing and selling and actually doing the thing. That will give you a good data set to compare the two.

[00:33:03] Caroline: For sure.

[00:33:04] Jason: All right, Our last self sabotage thing here is working in a silo and only showing up when you have something to sell.

[00:33:13] Caroline: This is a, this is kind of like the opposite of like, I'm afraid to sell.

[00:33:17] Jason: Yeah.

[00:33:18] Caroline: And this is creators who, they love creating new products. They love, It's a new online course, it's a new checklist, it's a new template. I've... they just, they love creating digital products, but what they do is they work on that completely in silence, never communicating with their audience. Maybe they mention a casual thing here or there, but what... All their time and attention goes to this. And what falls off the map is consistent content. Their newsletter suddenly goes dark, none of that free value. Their social media goes dark. So they're not communicating with their audience this whole time, but this whole time they're going, yeah, but this product is going to be so great. It's going to be so great. And once I let them know that it exists, it's going to do all the selling itself. And so then what happens? They pop back up.

[00:34:05] Jason: Yeah. This is what I have always said is like, this is the creation cave.

[00:34:07] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:34:08] Jason: So you just like exist in your little creation cave and you're making things and then you emerge out of your cave and you're like, I have a thing. And then what happens is like, you look around your cave and there's literally no one there.

[00:34:18] Caroline: Everybody moved on to another cave.

[00:34:19] Jason: Because everyone's like, I don't know what's going on. Like, I don't hear from this person. I don't know. I have no clue. And I just think this is one of those areas where if you get stuck in the I can only be in creation mode of things because I'm so afraid of marketing and stepping out of my comfort zone to do other things. You're always going to run into this problem of when I go to sell something no one buys or very little people buy, and it'll dwindle over time and over time, and eventually you'll have an email list that is almost worthless to your business because no one ever hears from you unless you're selling. And that is a way that you break trust with people, because all they then know from you is like, well, they're just always selling me something. Like, I'm never actually getting any value from them except for an offer to buy something.

[00:34:59] Caroline: Right. And going back to the other point about being fearful of being pushy and selling, a way that you combat that is, you do find solace in the fact that you're providing free value and you're... you're kind of giving before you ask. And so if you never do that, if you never give and then you're only asking, you know, that is a place where your audience will start to go, okay and move on. But, you know, I can relate to this so much because I think it's two things why people fall into this trap, and it's either you described it perfectly, which is that they're more comfortable creating than they are publicly showing up and creating content, because that's kind of uncomfortable. You know, it's like public versus private, right? So it's like if I'm making the digital product, I just am working in my little cave and I'm private and there's no judgment or there's no fear of judgment or anything like that. And so a little bit of that is just staying in your comfort zone. But I think another thing is that a little bit of that perfectionism, like, I'm afraid to share the process and like, build in public because I'm afraid of people judging my ideas before they're fully perfect. And that is something I think a lot of creators need to work on getting over is recognizing that people actually want to see the imperfect version. They want to see it come together. They want to see the process. So if you can somehow get your mind around this idea that people are not going to judge you for the unfinished version, share the process with them, Share with them what you're thinking, people are actually going to get on your side and along for the journey and be more likely to then be emotionally invested in whatever that final product is, even though the thing that you're showing them is not the final product yet.

[00:36:38] Jason: And I think this goes back to the like checking your inbox for sales emails and like not disliking someone who's sending multiple sales emails is you actually probably crave following people who are sharing the imperfect journey and like the process of whatever they're building. And if you like that type of content, then other people will like that type of content from you. And sure, there will be people who will be like, oh, this is like very beginner stuff or whatever. Again, that's like an unsubscribe moment. It's like great. Like they're not. This is not for you. That's okay. And you can move on. But yeah, as two people who have literally spent the last 10 years building almost every single thing we have made in public, sharing all of the journey from the very beginning to whenever a thing is for sale, we can tell you that this is, A, our favorite way of marketing because it's very, it's not easy, but it comes very naturally to us just to be like, hey, look what we're doing. Like, we like showing, seeing what other people are doing.

[00:37:29] Caroline: Easiest source of content ever.

[00:37:30] Jason: And I think the other part of that is that it then kind of sharpens or tones that muscle of sharing and promoting and putting yourself out there because you start to realize like, oh, if I share the imperfect version of whatever I'm creating, it's okay because I'm going to have people who just like seeing the things that I'm making whether it's done or not.

[00:37:49] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:37:50] Jason: So I think that's definitely one of the most important things you can do. If you are someone who lives in a creation cave constantly, you're afraid to emerge your little head out unless you're yelling that you have something for sale. And I think the action step here to move forward with is to define a marketing channel that you can stick with consistently and commit to sharing about your next product launch on that marketing channel.

[00:38:10] Caroline: Well, before you're ever going to launch.

[00:38:11] Jason: And just like give yourself like... and we talked about this, you know, we were releasing the Calm Launch Formula last year. Six months.

[00:38:17] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:38:17] Jason: So start right now. You have a launch in six months. Start talking about whatever it is you're making every single week.

[00:38:23] Caroline: What's the, what are you doing for it this week?

[00:38:25] Jason: Exactly.

[00:38:25] Caroline: What are your next steps?

[00:38:26] Jason: And there may not be a lot to show or share, but that's okay. People don't need to see like a perfect version of whatever you're working on.

[00:38:32] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:38:33] Jason: All right. Those are four self sabotage moves that a lot of people are making here and that we have made.

[00:38:39] Caroline: And I hope this was kind of a different type of episode where, again, very hard to read the label from inside the jar. So if you found yourself nodding along, going, you fit into one of these categories, I hope this just is like a nice little coaching episode to help you go. I do that. And this is such an easy way that you can actually facilitate the growth of your business by just getting out of your own way. There's not a lot to be done here except just observing and recognizing when you're falling into these patterns and making a different choice.

[00:39:11] Jason: Yeah. I think the thing to be done here is to recognize the pattern and then break the pattern.

[00:39:14] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:39:15] Jason: So whichever one of these you fall into the most, and I know some of you may be raising your hand be like, I fall into all four. That's okay. But it's about picking the one that you maybe fall into the quickest or the most and then deciding, great, I'm not. I'm going to change how I operate in this kind of area of my business, and I'm going to do something different this time around.

[00:39:32] Caroline: Definitely. And maybe there's one that we didn't talk about, but I think a good kind of journaling prompt from this episode is also to ask yourself, what are the patterns I see myself falling into that I know are holding me back from my business goals? And be your own coach. And once you identify those patterns, ask yourself, what's the different choice that you want to make?

[00:39:49] Jason: Yeah. Can I go buy the chainsaw now?

[00:39:51] Caroline: Yeah, because you're not a serial killer. You're just somebody who wants to trim some leaves.

[00:39:55] Jason: We actually don't really have any shrubs to trim, so I don't need to buy it. 

[00:39:58] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:39:59] Jason: But it'd be cool if I had it, wouldn't it? Like, just in case, like, if any shrubs popped up.

[00:40:02] Caroline: Chainsaws make me uncomfortable.

[00:40:03] Jason: Yeah, exactly. That's why I was worried why you were okay with it. 

[00:40:06] Caroline: Okay.

[00:40:07] Jason: Interesting. Maybe in this season, right now it's, I'm allowed to have it because it's kind of like we're dark and moody right now.

[00:40:12] Caroline: No, now you're changing my mind. Absolutely, you're not allowed to have it.

[00:40:14] Jason: Okay. All right. That's it for this episode. Hope you got some value from it. And we'll see you in the next one. 

[00:40:19] Caroline: Bye.