226 - A (real) messy convo about social media

[00:00:00] Caroline: ​ Welcome to Growing Steady, the show where we help online creators like you build a calm business, one that's predictable, profitable, and peaceful. We are your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an Un-boring Business coaching program, and Teachery, an online course platform for designers. Join us each week as we help you reach your business goals without sacrificing your well-being in the process. Slow and steady is the way we do things around here, baby.

[00:00:34] Jason: All right, cinnamon rollers, that's you. Let's get into the show. Hello and welcome back to the podcast. How are things going? What is up?

[00:00:47] Caroline: How is everyone's Thanksgiving? I know not everyone celebrates.

[00:00:49] Jason: Oh. Yeah, yeah. Time paradox. We're recording this two days before Thanksgiving...

[00:00:53] Caroline: Well, don't tell them.

[00:00:53] Jason: ...but you're listening to this a week after Thanksgiving.

[00:00:55] Caroline: We're in a time loop.

[00:00:56] Jason: Can we just quickly pramble about... Excuse me. Some of the fun things that we are going to be putting together for our own Thanksgiving? Because we didn't talk about that last episode.

[00:01:05] Caroline: No, no, everyone's already moved on. Nope.

[00:01:06] Jason: No, just really quickly, we have a couple fun things.

[00:01:09] Caroline: Okay, go ahead.

[00:01:10] Jason: Okay. First of all, Caroline sent me an Instagram reel of a woman who turned her sourdough into turkeys.

[00:01:17] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:01:17] Jason: So she basically just like kind of made little legs and wings.

[00:01:21] Caroline: She used like baker's twine, didn't she? To mold parts of it?

[00:01:26] Jason: No, not at all. No.

[00:01:27] Caroline: She didn't? She just shaped it?

[00:01:27] Jason: She just literally shaped it.

[00:01:28] Caroline: Are you sure?

[00:01:29] Jason: Yeah, yeah, she used a little...

[00:01:30] Caroline: I mean, you've watched it more times than I have.

[00:01:32] Jason: Exactly. She used a little... What's that thing called? A little dough cutter...

[00:01:36] Caroline: Scraper? Cutter?

[00:01:37] Jason: Little dough scraper to like, just carve off little chunks.

[00:01:39] Caroline: That's what she did, the chunks.

[00:01:39] Jason: And she just shaped them lightly.

[00:01:41] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:01:42] Jason: The little string was just done at the very end.

[00:01:45] Caroline: Oh, okay.

[00:01:45] Jason: She just did that as a little presentation.

[00:01:46] Caroline: So there was a string, though?

[00:01:47] Jason: Yeah, at the very end.

[00:01:48] Caroline: It's a garnish.

[00:01:49] Jason: And it was literally just like a belt.

[00:01:50] Caroline: It's a string garnish.

[00:01:50] Jason: It was like a turkey belt, that's all it was.

[00:01:52] Caroline: But it gave it a nice rustic vibe.

[00:01:53] Jason: But I will say, I was telling Caroline at lunch day because I've been thinking about this, and she said this to me for like a week on how I could possibly do this, because I make sourdough twice a week every single week.

[00:02:01] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:02:02] Jason: And I think my dough rises a lot more than most dough. And I think it's because I have a very happy yeast here. And I'm nervous...

[00:02:12] Caroline: Yeah, because it's Portuguese yeast. Everyone is happier here.

[00:02:13] Jason: Very happy. I'm nervous that I'm going to shape and create some little legs and wings of turkey. But when it gets in the oven, it's just going to just turn to a blob, it's just going to be a roll. So we'll see. I have some things I'm going to try. I may actually do two separate ways of doing it to see how the first one comes out...

[00:02:29] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:02:29] Jason: ...instead of just like doing all at once. But we'll see. That's one of the fun things is a turkey shaped sourdough.

[00:02:33] Caroline: So what's funny is you're listening to this, and we've already tried it.

[00:02:37] Jason: So we're going to have to report back.

[00:02:38] Caroline: So we don't know.

[00:02:38] Jason: Yeah, we're going to have to report back.

[00:02:39] Caroline: Yes.

[00:02:40] Jason: And then the other fun thing that we're going to do?

[00:02:42] Caroline: The other fun thing we're going to do. Are you referring to the new green bean casserole?

[00:02:44] Jason: Yes. We've done the same green bean casserole for seven years.

[00:02:48] Caroline: Seven years.

[00:02:49] Jason: This is new. Come on, babe. We're mixing it up. We're getting weird...

[00:02:55] Caroline: We're mixing up seven-year itch.

[00:02:55] Jason: We're getting weird and wild.

[00:02:56] Caroline: You know how they say spice it up in the bedroom.

[00:02:57] Jason: Yeah.

[00:02:57] Caroline: We misheard the kitchen.

[00:02:59] Jason: We thought you said spice it up in the casseroles.

[00:03:02] Caroline: And so, that's what we're doing.

[00:03:03] Jason: Yeah.

[00:03:03] Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:04] Jason: So we're going to do a fun, different creamy casserole recipe that you found.

[00:03:07] Caroline: Where you actually, you do your own onions.

[00:03:10] Jason: You do your own onions. But also...

[00:03:11] Caroline: What?

[00:03:11] Jason: ...there's like a brioche crouton that gets added on top-ish.

[00:03:15] Caroline: Oh, I forgot that.

[00:03:16] Jason: But I think we're going to do cornbread because we're going to have some cornbread.

[00:03:19] Caroline: No, no, no. Hey, first of all...

[00:03:20] Jason: Yeah. What's up?

[00:03:21] Caroline: ...don't bring this to the pod as a first float of the idea.

[00:03:24] Jason: I floated this already.

[00:03:25] Caroline: Where'd you float this idea?

[00:03:26] Jason: When we talked about that. We've been talking about these casseroles here for a while.

[00:03:29] Caroline: Who's we? What other wife do you have?

[00:03:31] Jason: It's me and you.

[00:03:32] Caroline: Okay, well, whoever that was, you're not going to bring a cornbread crust to my green bean casserole, that's blasphemy, and I'm not going to stand for it.

[00:03:39] Jason: Yeah. So also, we will be making... I'm going to make separate rolls, and then we're going to do some type of mashed potato. And then...

[00:03:46] Caroline: Again, you're just using this content vehicle to have the meeting about the Thanksgiving menu.

[00:03:52] Jason: Yeah, yeah, I'm excited.

[00:03:53] Caroline: Meanwhile, all of our listeners, all of the cinnamon rollers are like, bro, we did that last week.

[00:03:57] Jason: I know.

[00:03:58] Caroline: And it's been a week ago.

[00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Also, speaking of cinnamon rollers.

[00:04:02] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:04:03] Jason: I'm into baking season.

[00:04:04] Caroline: You are.

[00:04:04] Jason: So I did make a pie. I made a pumpkin pie.

[00:04:06] Caroline: You did make a pumpkin pie.

[00:04:08] Jason: Which is delicious. You don't like pumpkin pie.

[00:04:09] Caroline: That's not even Thanksgiving related. That's just the season.

[00:04:10] Jason: You're not eating any of it. So I'm eating an entire pumpkin pie. Also, fun fact about port Portugal, its like main agricultural export is pumpkin.

[00:04:17] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:04:18] Jason: You can't buy canned pumpkin in the store.

[00:04:20] Caroline: They do not do pumpkin puree here. 

[00:04:23] Jason: Which is hilarious. Which is kind of...

[00:04:23] Caroline: But we did find out what they do instead is pumpkin jam. That's how you...

[00:04:27] Jason: Yes, which you can't use for a pie because...

[00:04:29] Caroline: But couldn't you?

[00:04:30] Jason: No, because the puree is like the body of the pie.

[00:04:32] Caroline: Right. You're right.

[00:04:33] Jason: So I do appreciate they make pumpkin jam.

[00:04:35] Caroline: It'll be like pecan pie...

[00:04:36] Jason: And I will try that at some point for something. But there is an international grocery store where I was able to order some pumpkin puree, which worked out well. But I do find that very funny that Portugal exports so many pumpkins and we see thousands of them littered across the land.

[00:04:49] Caroline: I think this is one of the hidden benefits of moving to a different country is you're constantly surprised by the little idiosyncrasy... Wow, that's a hard word.

[00:04:59] Jason: Go ahead.

[00:04:59] Caroline: Idiosyncrasies, is that the right word?

[00:04:59] Jason: Idiosyncrasies? I don't know, I'm just going to say it like a normal person. And then you're adding...

[00:05:02] Caroline: I think I was adding like an N, idiosyncrasies.

[00:05:03] Jason: Yeah. You're adding other letters.

[00:05:04] Caroline: Idiosyncrasies. You say it fast.

[00:05:05] Jason: Yeah, say it faster. 

[00:05:07] Caroline: Of between your home country and where you are now. And just these little surprises where you're like, really?

[00:05:12] Jason: Oh, for sure.

[00:05:12] Caroline: Not a pumpkin puree in sight?

[00:05:14] Jason: Not a pumpkin puree. Definitely not the same amount of spices. Like it's very hard to find certain spices.

[00:05:20] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:05:20] Jason: Marshmallows don't exist in Portuguese grocery stores.

[00:05:22] Caroline: Well, now they do.

[00:05:23] Jason: But we did see there is one that's pink.

[00:05:25] Caroline: Wait, there's a big...

[00:05:25] Jason: And I don't know why.

[00:05:26] Caroline: Yeah. There's a marshmallow movement happening.

[00:05:27] Jason: Yeah, there's a marshmallow movement.

[00:05:28] Caroline: That they're infiltrating the grocery stores.

[00:05:30] Jason: Yeah.

[00:05:30] Caroline: And so, that's big news here.

[00:05:31] Jason: Yeah. Okay. So anyway, that's my pramble. Oh, what I was saying. Pumpkin pie.

[00:05:35] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:05:35] Jason: I did a batch of crinkle cookies.

[00:05:38] Caroline: Which turned out so much better.

[00:05:39] Jason: The first batch tasted like garbage.

[00:05:41] Caroline: Garbage.

[00:05:41] Jason: So I made a second batch, and they're much better.

[00:05:43] Caroline: Didn't even had one bite and said, "I love you so, so, so much. These are bad."

[00:05:45] Jason: These are bad. And I agree. The oil that I used was not good.

[00:05:45] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:05:45] Jason: And then next up is going to be pinwheel cookies. And you have requested a red food coloring pinwheel throughout to do a pinwheel.

[00:05:45] Caroline: Yeah. I mean, I'm not one to really ingest the old red dye on a regular basis.

[00:06:00] Jason: Right. But a couple drops for Christmas cookie.

[00:06:02] Caroline: Just a couple drops on Christmas is fine.

[00:06:03] Jason: Yeah. So I've got those things lined up. And then you had a request for the, what we call dippelgongers that are like peanut butter cookies...

[00:06:11] Caroline: With little Kisses.

[00:06:12] Jason: ...with a little Hershey Kiss. Can't get Hershey Kisses here.

[00:06:14] Caroline: I know, but then we will going to have to...

[00:06:15] Jason: But we will just get a chocolate. We'll just get some type of chocolate.

[00:06:16] Caroline: A something chocolate. Yeah. With some dap.

[00:06:17] Jason: Yeah, some chocolate. Right on top. So that's what's going on in the baking zone. I know a lot of folks come to this podcast...

[00:06:23] Caroline: Baking zone. They do.

[00:06:23] Jason: ...and they're like, oh, what's my baking podcast I want to listen to?

[00:06:25] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:06:25] Jason: Oh, it's Growing Steady. That's for sure.

[00:06:27] Caroline: Baking in business.

[00:06:27] Jason: Growing Steady Baking. Growing Steady. Get it? It's like the bread is growing steady, the yeast is growing steady.

[00:06:33] Caroline: We should have done something of rise.

[00:06:35] Jason: Huh.

[00:06:35] Caroline: Like on the rise.

[00:06:37] Jason: Oh, wow.

[00:06:38] Caroline: Baking and business.

[00:06:39] Jason: Maybe that'll be my baking podcast that I do.

[00:06:41] Caroline: Maybe we should change the name of this podcast a fourth time.

[00:06:43] Jason: Okay, here's the thing.

[00:06:44] Caroline: What?

[00:06:44] Jason: I've always wanted to do, what podcast?

[00:06:48] Caroline: You've always wanted to create a new podcast?

[00:06:50] Jason: Yeah. What's the podcast I've always talked about doing for many years? You don't like the idea of it.

[00:06:54] Caroline: Oh, the assembling IKEA furniture.

[00:06:55] Jason: Yeah. So it's a podcast where I assemble a piece of IKEA furniture...

[00:06:58] Caroline: Quietly.

[00:06:59] Jason: ...like a... 

[00:06:59] Caroline: But do you say it?

[00:07:00] Jason: No, it's not quietly.

[00:07:01] Caroline: Oh, you dictate it?

[00:07:01] Jason: I'm just taking you through the instructions.

[00:07:03] Caroline: Okay.

[00:07:03] Jason: So I'm saying you take, A, which is the long part, and you're going to take B, and you have the little screws, and I'm going to walk you through every step.

[00:07:09] Caroline: Yeah, it's a bad idea.

[00:07:10] Jason: Is it? Is it?

[00:07:10] Caroline: But I love your imagination. I think it's beautiful.

[00:07:12] Jason: But now I'm thinking on the rise, is our better next podcast where you could just be my co-host, and you just ask me all the questions about the thing that I baked. Wow.

[00:07:23] Caroline: Sounds great.

[00:07:24] Jason: Yeah. No one cares. Okay, let's get into the topic of this episode. Those are the pramble tops. That is your Thanksgiving recap.

[00:07:30] Caroline: Alternate name of this podcast, No One Cares.

[00:07:32] Jason: Really quickly.

[00:07:33] Caroline: What?

[00:07:33] Jason: How delicious was Thanksgiving? Because now they're listening to it. Thanksgiving happen. Hmm.

[00:07:38] Caroline: Hmm. Wow.

[00:07:38] Jason: It was so good.

[00:07:39] Caroline: All of our plans went flawlessly.

[00:07:42] Jason: Whoa. Remember those little turkey sourdoughs I made? They're so cute.

[00:07:44] Caroline: They're so cute. And we definitely didn't fight in the kitchen like we always do every Thanksgiving.

[00:07:48] Jason: No way. It was so good.

[00:07:50] Caroline: So good.

[00:07:51] Jason: Okay, this episode, Carol, you're in charge.

[00:07:53] Caroline: Okay.

[00:07:53] Jason: I am now taking sidekick roll because I have pramble, and that's the most important thing I...

[00:07:57] Caroline: Okay, those of you who are new to the podcast, this episode topic will be like, oh, something new to talk about.

[00:08:01] Jason: Is anybody new to our podcast?

[00:08:03] Caroline: Yes.

[00:08:04] Jason: You think so?

[00:08:05] Caroline: Yes.

[00:08:05] Jason: I would love...

[00:08:06] Caroline: I think we're getting new...

[00:08:07] Jason: I would love three people to email.

[00:08:09] Caroline: Who are like, you think you're a relatively new listener.

[00:08:11] Jason: Or leave a comment if you listen on Spotify.

[00:08:12] Caroline: And you're like, "I'm new."

[00:08:14] Jason: You have listened to only five episodes of this podcast.

[00:08:17] Caroline: I know it's going to take five minutes out of your day, and it's kind of cumbersome, but please do it because I really want to be right about this. I think we have at least three new listeners.

[00:08:25] Jason: I doubt it. I doubt it.

[00:08:27] Caroline: Really?

[00:08:27] Jason: We do nothing to promote this podcast.

[00:08:30] Caroline: Word of mouth. I mean, word on the street is.

[00:08:32] Jason: Who do you tell about podcast episodes?

[00:08:35] Caroline: A lot of people.

[00:08:36] Jason: Really?

[00:08:37] Caroline: Yes.

[00:08:37] Jason: Really?

[00:08:38] Caroline: Yes.

[00:08:38] Jason: Really?

[00:08:39] Caroline: Yes.

[00:08:40] Jason: You could show me receipts right now?

[00:08:41] Caroline: Literally, my friends all listens to podcasts. They're like, "Oh, did you do so and so?" I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:08:47] Jason: Oh, they ask you if you listen to a podcast and you say yes, no, it's not you sharing the podcast.

[00:08:51] Caroline: And that's not what you were asking.

[00:08:54] Jason: Moving on. Keep going.

[00:08:55] Caroline: I'm just saying people are out there sharing podcast.

[00:08:56] Jason: We're going to get there. We're going to get to the topic at hand here eventually.

[00:08:59] Caroline: What I was going to say is...

[00:09:00] Jason: Uh-huh.

[00:09:00] Caroline: ...if you're an old listener...

[00:09:02] Jason: Yes.

[00:09:02] Caroline: ...if you're a cinnamon roller from way back when, this is the same, I swear, podcast topic that we have every one to two years.

[00:09:10] Jason: Yup.

[00:09:11] Caroline: And it is just like, we reach this place at the end of the year. It's usually end of the year where we just go, should we go back on social media?

[00:09:17] Jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:18] Caroline: And I say, should, I really mean, do we want to go back on social media?

[00:09:22] Jason: Yeah.

[00:09:23] Caroline: And we are at this place now where yet again, we've got the itch. I should say I have the itch.

[00:09:29] Jason: I do not have the itch.

[00:09:30] Caroline: Which is, of course, what happens. And then I thought we were both had the itch. And then Jason, right before we recorded, he was like, "Just so we're clear, I don't have the itch." And I was like, "Well, okay." And he's like, "I think we should talk about this on the podcast." Because...

[00:09:42] Jason: Well, yeah. And also, you said we did our last... the episode two episodes ago now is when this episode... Or no, last episode is when this goes up.

[00:09:49] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:09:50] Jason: We did the pick five. And you're like, "We both pick social media to start." And I'm like, "No, we did not. Let's go look at the receipts." And I picked YouTube, and then I picked email. You picked Instagram as your first thing.

[00:10:00] Caroline: Yes. Okay, but you're conveniently leaving out that you're third item was...

[00:10:03] Jason: Was Threads.

[00:10:03] Caroline: ...a social media platform.

[00:10:04] Jason: I did pick Threads, but also it was not that I didn't want to do it. I did it because it was like, if I was a new business, I have to go...

[00:10:12] Caroline: Well, that's okay.

[00:10:12] Jason: Yeah.

[00:10:12] Caroline: Well, that's okay. I'm not saying that you like social media. I'm not saying that you want to do it. I'm saying it's worth having the conversation...

[00:10:19] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:19] Caroline: ...about the role that it plays in our business. And I think there's just lots of juicy conversation tangents there because I think a lot of our listeners are probably in the same boat where they know that... You know at times, social media... And we all know this. Right? Like, there is a side of it that is a lot of toxicity. There's a competitiveness with it, especially if you're using it for business where you're just like, you're constantly in comparison mode. The bar keeps getting raised. And so, all these things make it unappealing. Right? But the more time that I spend away from it, I do also miss some of the benefits of it and how it's easier to connect with your audience. It's easier to form relationships, to see what they're struggling with, what they're interested in, getting new people into your brand of awareness. And I have just started to feel, over these past three years, we very much have removed ourselves from the digital ecosystem because we had an enough mindset. We were like, we have our newsletter, we have our podcast. That's enough for us. Right? And I think that was a beautiful strategy. And I'm not saying we abandon it. All I'm saying...

[00:11:26] Jason: And I think it's very important to know...

[00:11:28] Caroline: Yes.

[00:11:28] Jason: ...it worked.

[00:11:29] Caroline: And it works.

[00:11:29] Jason: So I think the hypothesis was three years ago, can we leave Instagram behind?

[00:11:33] Caroline: Yes.

[00:11:34] Jason: Focus on our email newsletter, making that really good. Focusing on this podcast, making it very mediocre. Having a good affiliate program with our existing members who help promote our launches twice per year. And will that be enough for our business?

[00:11:47] Caroline: Yes.

[00:11:47] Jason: And I think if we're just being truthful, you had some skepticism about that. I had some optimism about that, and it turned out to be true.

[00:11:55] Caroline: Yes.

[00:11:55] Jason: And I will say that that's great because we both run the same businesses, so I'm glad that it worked out. But I do think that we have seen a leveling off of our revenue...

[00:12:06] Caroline: Yes.

[00:12:06] Jason: ...where it is not growing. Our audience and our email list is not necessarily growing at all. And that is something you have to take note of is do I need to make some changes? Are some signals being pointed in my direction that I might need to get back where people's attention is?

[00:12:23] Caroline: Yes.

[00:12:23] Jason: And I think if anything the 2020 to 2024 years, it focused everybody in to be more involved in social media than they ever were before.

[00:12:33] Caroline: Yes.

[00:12:33] Jason: And so, I think people now like it's a part of their daily routine. They spend their time there. Like we see this all the time, like people don't know we exist.

[00:12:40] Caroline: Okay. Well, that speaks to my point because I don't think you meant to do this, but I had a thought that I couldn't finish because I think you jumped in. So I just want to close the loop on that thought, which is we have removed ourselves from the digital ecosystem the past three years, which to your interjection, it worked and it was great. But I am starting to feel cut off in a way that I don't like. I'm starting to feel sort of in a cave, in a silo where... And I think if I'm really investigating like what is at the root of this like desire to get back to it and what is related to that being cut off feeling is I really don't like the feeling of my skills becoming dull. Does that make sense?

[00:13:26] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this before. I brought this metaphor to you of this idea of like not sharpening your knives.

[00:13:32] Caroline: Yes. And my knives feel so dull right now. Just to exist as a business, yes, I think it's totally worth like interrogating the assumption that to be a business in 2024/2025, you have to be creating content on social media all the time. I think that is an assumption that is worth interrogating for sure. And I think there are ways around it. Absolutely. I think the way that people are like, you have to blah, blah, blah, it's not as black and white cut and dry as that. However, I think it's also equally worth acknowledging that media changes and marketing changes. And as business owners, you have to be aware of those changes and have a little bit of open mindedness and flexibility to where those market shifts are happening. I think that's part of just being an entrepreneur. And I'm starting to feel like, though our formula still does work, I am extrapolating out that future where our knives continue to get duller and duller over time, and we continue to rest on the laurels of a newsletter and a podcast. And slowly, before we even know it that... I don't even want to use the word relevance, but just like that skill becomes outdated to the point where now the barrier has become so high that I can't take the business in the direction that I want it to go, because now I've created so many barriers for myself. And I'm talking abstractly, but what I really mean is because we've spent three years off social media, the barrier feels so high to me right now.

[00:15:03] Jason: Yeah. And I think, again, I'm going to come at this podcast episode. If you're Team Jason, you're going to come out this podcast episode with a lot of skepticism for the value that social media plays from a business standpoint. Right? Team Caroline is going to come at this from a standpoint of the optimism of social media and the value that it can bring from a business standpoint.

[00:15:23] Caroline: Yes.

[00:15:23] Jason: So as we go through this, you can decide which team you're on and you can change sides however you want. Maybe I'll change sides by the end. Maybe you'll change sides. Whatever. From the day that I stopped using social media...

[00:15:36] Caroline: From the day that you arrived on the planet?

[00:15:38] Jason: ...in 2015...

[00:15:40] Caroline: Yes.

[00:15:40] Jason: ...really just stopped using social media almost altogether. And it was a slow burn after that that I dabbled a little bit in Instagram...

[00:15:48] Caroline: You trickled off.

[00:15:49] Jason: ...or did whatever was on Twitter a little bit, but I just really stopped using it. And my whole point from that 10 years ago was, show me the return. And I fully get your point has always been but brand. Brand matters. People need to hear about you. People need to be aware about you. And I think now being three years removed from being on any platform, really, I think that my whole hypothesis has proven true, is as long as you're doing something, people can find you. Now, do I feel like maybe the decision was easier for us three years ago? Because we had an email newsletter list. We have an audience of customers who want to promote us. It makes it so much easier to leave Instagram. People who are listening to this podcast who do not have that luxury, of course...

[00:16:33] Caroline: Which is why we did a whole episode on creating your off ramp. Right?

[00:16:35] Jason: Yeah.

[00:16:35] Caroline: That was the whole point of that episode was like, your social media off ramp. It's like, what do you need to have in place in order to be able to make an empowered move away from Instagram? If you feel like that's where you are just where we were many years ago.

[00:16:46] Jason: Yeah. So the point that I'm getting to, as I look at this from the side of, I am a co-owner of... And we're specifically talking about Wandering Aimfully here, because I do want to talk about Teachery because I have a different outlook on it when it comes to social media, which I think we don't have a...

[00:17:00] Caroline: Well, that's interesting. We should talk about why that is.

[00:17:02] Jason: Which we'll talk about.

[00:17:06] Caroline: Okay.

[00:17:06] Jason: But again, I think it's going to be very interesting, like when we get to that point. No matter what, when it comes to Wandering Aimfully, when it comes to being on Instagram, let's just say that that's what we're talking about specifically. I know for myself, I just am so disinterested in creating the content that people will want to interact with on a daily basis to be in their purview, to then be able to convince them to get on our email list or convince them to buy something. Like it's just all of that to me, just feels so frictionful. And not because my knives are dull, but because I just don't think it works that well for the amount of energy you put in. I don't think you get a good return out.

[00:17:47] Caroline: Yeah, I mean, I get that for sure. I do think that's one of my hesitations is like, I do remember how much time it took to do it well. It's a lot of time. And so, I'm worried about that for sure. But I think what I'm realizing now too, and we know this, it has so much to do with it is like what your personal experience is of using it. Because I just think you don't get any type of creative fulfillment out of creating content whatsoever. And I get so much creative fulfillment out of creating content. I love the process...

[00:18:18] Jason: And we realize why this is.

[00:18:19] Caroline: Why?

[00:18:20] Jason: Can I interject? I just want to share something. We realize why this is because I went too hard from 2009 to 2013...

[00:18:28] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:18:28] Jason: ...creating content every single day.

[00:18:29] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:18:30] Jason: With almost no breaks. So like I literally burnt myself out. And it is a perpetual, never ending burnout that I can't get over.

[00:18:35] Caroline: Yeah, it's the type of burnout where it's like, it is scars.

[00:18:39] Jason: Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:39] Caroline: Where you'll live with them for the rest of your life.

[00:18:41] Jason: I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just thought it was helpful to share that. You now what I mean?

[00:18:43] Caroline: No, I understand.

[00:18:44] Jason: We came to that together the other day.

[00:18:45] Caroline: Yeah, we have had many conversations because... I'll actually like bring people into that conversation. We're in the car and I'm thinking to myself, again, as this is rattling around in my head, I had this realization where I thought it was so funny that like what plays so well on like TikTok and reels are like a genre of that is like people doing funny skits, right? Like they dream up like a funny, interesting concept and they execute on that concept. And it's a fun, creative idea, right? That is all you used to do for your YouTube videos when you had your business, IWearYourShirt. And if anyone's like, what's IWearYourShirt? Just Google it. It's easier. But you were basically making these like mini commercials on YouTube all the time. And we would come up with the... When I sort of came on board, it was like we would come up with the concept together, and we would film it and we would have so much fun doing just being dumb, like just silly.

[00:19:37] Jason: Yeah.

[00:19:37] Caroline: And that's what people are doing now a decade later. And so, I had this realization in the car where I was like, your brain and your personality and your everything is almost so well-suited to this that it's so funny to me that you find zero creative enjoyment...

[00:19:54] Jason: Fulfillment, yeah.

[00:19:54] Caroline: ...out of it. And you were like, it's just that it repels me because I associate it so deeply with the burnout that I had. I'm just offering this up, I'm not saying that this is true, but I wonder if you actually did some digging around that and like healing that memory for you and like that emotional association you have with that time period in your life, the debt, the working yourself into the ground, like I wonder if you actually, whether it was therapy or just like spending time with it and thinking about it and trying to change your emotional orientation to it, I wonder if you would be able to create from a place of joy instead of just remembering how shitty it felt.

[00:20:39] Jason: Yeah. But then I come back to...

[00:20:41] Caroline: Why?

[00:20:41] Jason: ...what the name of this podcast used to be, which is what is it all for?

[00:20:43] Caroline: And I get that.

[00:20:43] Jason: Like if we're being 100% honest, if it is not for a purely return on investment business outcome of, I am trying to get more people to buy X thing from me. If it's just like creative experimentation and sharing...

[00:20:58] Caroline: Yes.

[00:20:59] Jason: ...that is ego driven. It really, if we're being just.... If we're just...

[00:21:01] Caroline: Well, see, so I disagree. I disagree. I think that the output is ego driven and I think that the process is more alignment driven.

[00:21:10] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:10] Caroline: I just see it differently. Which is what I was going to say, I think is so funny that this is where I think the crux of our difference of perspective comes in. Which is for you, it's such a rational thing where you just go, if I'm not getting out more than I'm putting in in terms of results for my business, what is the point? And that makes sense to me. Like, I see that perspective. And for me, because it is a little bit more process driven, like I love the expression of experimenting with different formats. I love thinking about what do I want to say. I love thinking about what's the message that... What is Wandering Aimfully as a brand? What is it trying to say? What's the mission? How can I put that into content that's useful in people's lives? How can I say it in a way that hasn't been said before? Like, I love the creative puzzle of that, even though it can be overwhelming sometimes. So to me, it feels like I am almost like itching to get back to it, not because I think it will do anything major for our business, but because I miss that feeling of connection and creation and like existing in a space that feels like other humans are out there hanging out.

[00:22:16] Jason: Yeah.

[00:22:18] Caroline: And so, to me, the results take feels more ego driven. It feels more like, well, if it's not going to amount to likes on my account and dollars in my bank account, then what's the point?

[00:22:29] Jason: Yeah, I think I very much see it as a tool to be used and the way that it would makes the most sense for me to use it as a tool is not a way I want to spend my time doing anything. I think like a perfect example too is like, okay, so take business out of it and let's just say I have my own personal Instagram and it's like, I just want to share stuff. Like, I just like doing fun things.

[00:22:50] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:22:50] Jason: And these turkey sourdough loaves are like the perfect example. Right?

[00:22:53] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:22:53] Jason: Like, this is a thing that it would be very fun for people to watch to see if it ends up being shitty, because it probably will.

[00:23:01] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:23:01] Jason: And like, that's a good piece of content. Like, if something ends up being crappy, we all love to watch it fail. But the thing for me is that when I go in the kitchen when I'm baking something, I absolutely want nothing to do with a camera interrupting that experience.

[00:23:15] Caroline: Well, yeah, that's a big part of it.

[00:23:18] Jason: And I think that that is where I think a lot of people force themselves to put a camera or a phone next to them to do a thing, and it ruins that thing for them. And I think that's the thing that I've trying to... As I've gotten older, as we've created this life for each other that we both love so much, I see these moments where I'm like, oh, I think I know people would find this very interesting, but I'm like, that actually removes 25% of the enjoyment that I'm having for that thing or more if I'm trying to capture it and then share it.

[00:23:48] Caroline: I know, and I used to agree with you so wholeheartedly, truly. I really am glad that we didn't overly try to create content from our whole travel year, for example. But a perfect example is that I look back and I'm so grateful that we took clips for those YouTube videos and that we have those YouTube videos because it made it last longer in my memory.

[00:24:11] Jason: Yeah. But I think the answer there is that going on that trip, we would have taken those clips no matter what because we would have wanted to remember the trip, but it really wasn't forced because we had to take the YouTube videos.

[00:24:23] Caroline: But see, I disagree because we do lots of things in our daily life that... Think about it, like just in the past two weeks, I've made a more intentional effort to try to just capture little moments of our life and whatever. Why? Because I just like putting them on my little personal Portuguese Instagram story and connecting with our friends and family here and showing our family a little portal into what it's like to live here. And it's all stuff that I 100% would not have taken a snapshot of that moment without the intention of sharing it. And now I look back on my camera roll, and I'm like, oh, there are snapshots of my life that I captured that I'm so grateful I did because I'm able to see those moments. And so, I'm totally with you. Like, there was a time where I believed and aligned with you 100% on that of it only ruins the moment. Like why try to record anything? But now I'm starting to see, like I look back over... For example, last year, 2023 is a perfect example because we were creating zero content. And I'm like, man, there were so many memories that I wish I would have at least just captured something. You know what I mean?

[00:25:31] Jason: But you didn't capture anything for those? Like what's an example...

[00:25:33] Caroline: Not a lot. Not a lot. Like there's lots of things that I feel like we did that I can't think of right now because we didn't capture.

[00:25:42] Jason: Yeah, but I actually think if... Especially because I think I tend to take more pictures than you do when we travel or whatever.

[00:25:49] Caroline: Because you're better at it.

[00:25:50] Jason: Yeah, but it doesn't matter. Like, I'm just saying. So I think I do capture a lot of our memories. And I think the thing that we're all just not great at is going back through those, which is why it is nice that Apple has the photo memory that pops up a year ago. Here's what you did today. You're like, oh, cool, thanks.

[00:26:04] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Jason: But I think for me, my response to that is like, the trip that we took with your mom to Douro Valley last summer.

[00:26:11] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:11] Jason: That trip, I captured a ton of it. Like I took photos everywhere, and I gave them to you, and you posted some of them. But I think for me, I'm so grateful that I have those photos to look back on. It does nothing for me to share those photos for someone else to see.

[00:26:27] Caroline: That's fine. But I think it speaks to my point of, yeah, I wanted to share those on my little personal account, so I captured those moments.

[00:26:36] Jason: Right. But I think the point that I was just trying to get to there is it doesn't make the memory stick any further just because you shared it on Instagram, it's the fact that we captured it and that we have.

[00:26:47] Caroline: I know. I think we're talking past each other, but the reason that I captured it was because I was going to share a little recap on Instagram.

[00:26:54] Jason: Right. And the reason that I captured it was so that we could remember that we did it. Not to share it with anybody.

[00:27:00] Caroline: Right.

[00:27:01] Jason: Right. Right.

[00:27:04] Caroline: So I think we're two different people.

[00:27:05] Jason: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and again, I think in this conversation, that's why I'm saying like Team Jason, Team Caroline because I think people tend to look at social media just bring it back around, because people are like, you guys just went into a dark hole there.

[00:27:18] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:27:18] Jason: Is really trying to wrestle with this idea of is it worth the time to be spending on these social media platforms for my happiness, for my business? For anything?

[00:27:27] Caroline: No. Okay, that's a different question, but I just want to close the loop on that little segment of the conversation, because I think where we started, I think we lost our way a little bit. Where we started was, does it ruin the moment? Does it take you out of the present moment to be capturing it on film at the same time? And I think the answer is, yes, it does. You lose a little something. But is there a happy medium? Because I think you also gained something. And so, it's like is there a way that you can find a balance so that you're not that person who is just out there doing stuff for content, but is also like finding a moment for yourself, not trying to live in your phone, but also, is there a benefit that comes from the intention? Like does it enhance an experience when you are engaged in a process of documenting it? Because you see it through a different lens. You get to soak it in more, you appreciate it more. And then also, after the fact, you get to remember it more because you turn it into a thing.

[00:28:28] Jason: And I'm not arguing with you at all about capturing the moment. Again, that's what I was getting to my point is I think I capture most moments that are unique in our lives. Like, the wine tasting was a perfect example. We went to two wineries. I took a bunch of photos throughout that entire thing.

[00:28:41] Caroline: But again, the thing that you said at the very beginning was about capturing it was ruining the moment. That was where you started.

[00:28:49] Jason: No.

[00:28:49] Caroline: It had nothing to do with sharing. It was like capturing it. It was like...

[00:28:52] Jason: No, no, no.

[00:28:53] Caroline: ...having your phone out and...

[00:28:54] Jason: No, no.

[00:28:55] Caroline: It wasn't?

[00:28:55] Jason: No.

[00:28:55] Caroline: I misheard that completely. 

[00:28:56] Jason: Yeah, you misheard that. Yeah.

[00:28:57] Caroline: Oh.

[00:28:57] Jason: It wasn't all about that, because where that started... And we're getting into the weeds. I don't think it really matters. Let's come back around and we can circle back to the things we actually want to talk about here. We went down a bubble cave. We found the end of the bubble cave. Let's walk our way back out. There's no way back out, but back out the entrance.

[00:29:12] Caroline: Okay. But we have to hold hands as we walk out of the bubble cave.

[00:29:14] Jason: Fantastic. Yeah.

[00:29:14] Caroline: Great.

[00:29:14] Jason: I'm not at all upset in anyway whatsoever.

[00:29:16] Caroline: No, I know any.

[00:29:17] Jason: I think you maybe misheard what I was saying or... I'm all for capturing moments. That is 100%. I take a shit ton of photos on my phone. I'm always having to upgrade my phone to a larger size because the thing on my phone that takes up the most space is all the photos and videos I've ever captured. I just am not interested at all in sharing those things. I get no personal value out of sharing the things that we do. I get the personal value out of having the memories that I can look back on. That was where I was just going...

[00:29:42] Caroline: Okay.

[00:29:42] Jason: ...with my whole thing.

[00:29:43] Caroline: I just feel so confused because I really thought that that was like the whole point of that whole side quest that we went on.

[00:29:49] Jason: Uh-uh.

[00:29:50] Caroline: What was the point of the side quest?

[00:29:52] Jason: Well, you started talking about we wouldn't have taken the videos when we traveled in 2022, like for our European travels.

[00:29:59] Caroline: No. I use that as an example. You started by saying, "Part of the reason why I have no interest in sharing anything online is because it disrupts the moment."

[00:30:08] Jason: Yeah. But I'm saying, like an example is like something that I'm doing like the sourdough turkey things. Like that's a thing I'm doing for myself and for you. It's not an experience I'm having out in life that, like I need to remember. Like, I will take one or two photos of me doing that, but for me to set up a camera to record a video clip, to do all that, there's a circumstance of all that that I'm not interested in spending any effort or time toward. I want to remember that I did the thing, and I'll ask you to come take a photo of me holding it, but it's very different than capturing it to be shared.

[00:30:41] Caroline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with the fact that it's cumbersome, but I also think it gets less cumbersome the more that you do it. And part of what makes it feel so disruptive right now, like for example, I would really love to be sharing process videos of me creating art. It feels very cumbersome right now. It takes me out of the moment to set up the thing and da, da, da, da. But I keep experimenting with different angles in different ways so that it feels the least amount of friction. And I find that it is getting easier because now it's just like, oh, yeah, I do this and that doesn't disrupt the flow, you know what I'm saying? So I think part of what feels so frictionful right now is back to my knives point, which is we share such little amount of content that it feels so... The bar feels so high and everything feels so effortful. Does that make sense?

[00:31:30] Jason: It does make sense, for sure. And again, I think this is where we just have differing opinions on, you want to share your art, and you want it to be seen, but I don't have any interest in sharing the things that I'm creating because they're just for me or for you.

[00:31:47] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:48] Jason: So that's the big difference.

[00:31:49] Caroline: That is the big difference.

[00:31:50] Jason: And I think it's like, no matter what I've been into, whether it's baking or anything, I do it for myself, not because I care if anybody else sees it.

[00:32:00] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:01] Jason: So again, I think we're on the side of social media where it's like for more personal. Like, I'm doing it for like self-expression and art and whatever, and everyone's going to have their own unique take on that. But I do think the more interesting conversation for this podcast episode is for the business side of things and like how you're thinking of doing that and moving that forward. Do you need a pause?

[00:32:19] Caroline: Uh-uh. No, I'm just thinking.

[00:32:22] Jason: Oh... It's the conversations that we have, so you're getting like a full, messy episode here.

[00:32:26] Caroline: Yeah. It's been so long since we just shared a real conversation, but this is oftentimes like what we're... Literally, we have probably versions of this conversation so many times a week, because we're just...

[00:32:37] Jason: Yeah.

[00:32:37] Caroline: And this is the beauty of having two people in partnership running businesses is like, what each of you needs is different, what each of you likes to do is different. And you're trying to come together with something that makes both of you happy. Right?

[00:32:51] Jason: Yeah.

[00:32:51] Caroline: Wherever we're trying to steer the business.

[00:32:54] Jason: Speaking of steering, can I take over as cruise director for just a moment...

[00:32:57] Caroline: Sure.

[00:32:57] Jason: ...and bring up my Teachery point and then we can circle back?

[00:33:00] Caroline: Oh, sure, because I would love to hear that.

[00:33:00] Jason: Because I think this episode, you had a lot more thoughts. I probably derailed it. Like, I do a lot of our conversations because there's a point that I want to get across that maybe you're not hearing that I'm trying to say, and then it's all falls apart.

[00:33:12] Caroline: I'm going to listen to this podcast back myself...

[00:33:14] Jason: No chance. No chance.

[00:33:14] Caroline: ...just to hear what you said. Yes. Huh.

[00:33:15] Jason: No chance. That is a bold base...

[00:33:16] Caroline: Yes, huh, yes, huh.

[00:33:16] Jason: That's a bold baseline. You know it. When was the last time you listen to one of our podcast episodes?

[00:33:22] Caroline: I actually do listen to them probably like once every three months. I listen to the episodes.

[00:33:25] Jason: Once every three months. How long end do you get?

[00:33:27] Caroline: The whole thing.

[00:33:28] Jason: Well, okay. Like all the way to the end?

[00:33:30] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:33:30] Jason: You're a cinnamon roller. You're a true cinnamon roller.

[00:33:31] Caroline: I am a true cinnamon roller.

[00:33:33] Jason: Okay. Anyway, cruise directing. Let me talk about Teachery for a second.

[00:33:36] Caroline: Please do.

[00:33:36] Jason: So for those of you who have not listened to past episodes and for some reason you made it past the bubble cave experience that we just had a few minutes ago, you're still here. I have basically taken over running Teachery again like I was a couple years ago, making all my own decisions on what I want to do.

[00:33:53] Caroline: Yeah. It's nice.

[00:33:54] Jason: As of recording this, I am one month into a three-month experiment that is using paid ads. So I have hired a paid ads company and this is like specifically Google Ads and those things.

[00:34:07] Caroline: AdWords, if you will.

[00:34:07] Jason: AdWords, if you will. Really not getting into any social ads whatsoever. And just because it's a software product, like I think it lends itself more towards what people are searching for and you're getting people to sign up for a trial, et cetera. Like I think that fits better there. However, I am open to that being a hypothesis that can be proven incorrect. So one of the things that we've talked about that I'm going to do is depending on how the this three month experiment goes, if it starts to go really well towards the end, then I'm not going to rock the boat and I'm just going to keep riding that wave for as long as that wave works. So I'm just going to keep paying for paid ads, going to keep getting new customers and I'll just be happy to make more money than we spend on the ads and that's all good to go. I have a sinking suspicion though, by the end of the three months, just based on how the first month has gone, it's not going to be that way. It's going to we're competing against so many other course platforms that are outranking us and out paying for leads to sign up, that it's just not going to be worth the money for our small company. Now, if we were a bigger company with funding, maybe you just outplay them, it's fine. So my next experiment with Teachery, and I've talked to you about this, is having someone as a user generated content creator, UGC on TikTok, Instagram whatever it is for Teachery, I do not want to create the content.

[00:35:21] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:35:21] Jason: So I am perfectly happy for my knives to be super dull. And I just am not interested in opening the app and like, thinking of things. I want to find someone or a company that does content creation for software companies. And it doesn't have to necessarily be a software companies, but it needs to be for businesses and to see if that can convert to getting free trials and eventually lifetime signups for Teachery. And I'll just, it's going to be really interesting to see if I spend the same amount of money essentially...

[00:35:51] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:52] Jason: ...in those three months as we do during the AdWords months. How do they relate? And I have a feeling that I don't think it's going to go super well. And I'm not saying that from a pessimistic standpoint. I'm saying that from like, who wants to follow a software account on social media? Now, I'm going to try and find creative people. I want to try and find people who are doing weird stuff. I'm going to try and find people...

[00:36:12] Caroline: Do you want them to post on... Do you want them to create content that is going to be posted to Teachery's account?

[00:36:17] Jason: That, I want to actually lean on them to tell me.

[00:36:20] Caroline: Or do you want a more pay for like almost brand sponsorships?

[00:36:24] Jason: Brand sponsorships is different. That to me is a whole third experiment that we've talked about. So, like...

[00:36:28] Caroline: Well...

[00:36:29] Jason: But I'm talking about like someone creating content talking about Teachery, showing Teachery, using Teachery.

[00:36:34] Caroline: Yeah. Sponsored content.

[00:36:35] Jason: Yes, sure. Yeah.

[00:36:38] Caroline: Yeah. I'm not talking about ads in a newsletter. I'm talking about sponsored content. Somebody...

[00:36:42] Jason: Yes.

[00:36:44] Caroline: So you haven't figured that out yet?

[00:36:45] Jason: I haven't figured that out other than I am interested in doing that as the next experiment for Teachery for three months to then compare it.

[00:36:51] Caroline: Now, why do you feel like you're able to be in a space of experimentation and hypothesis sizing...

[00:37:00] Jason: Uh-huh. Sure.

[00:37:01] Caroline: ...with Teachery and not with WAIM?

[00:37:04] Jason: Because the difference is I think you want to create on the WAIM's Instagram account and like, you want to be doing the work there and like the creation because it brings you fulfillment to do that. I don't get any fulfillment from creating the content.

[00:37:17] Caroline: No, I know. I don't think you're hearing my question. So that when it comes to Teachery, you're willing to just experiment and just say, hey, does this move the needle? And whatever. Who cares who's creating the content. Whether it's me, whether it's a person, whether it's you, whatever. But it's just like you're willing to have an open mind and be sort of like test out the theory of like does this move the needle. But I feel like for WAIM you've already decided that like you just, you can't bring the same level of experimentation and open mindedness to like Instagram for WAIM for some reason.

[00:37:47] Jason: Yeah, because I think we have historical data that tells me that WAIM is only ever going to bring an additional 10% of customers to buy the things that we're selling.

[00:37:57] Caroline: Well, that was before all my viral reels obviously.

[00:38:00] Jason: Was it though?

[00:38:00] Caroline: You haven't given me a chance to make all my viral reels.

[00:38:02] Jason: Was it though? We had a viral reel, and it didn't turn...

[00:38:05] Caroline: Yeah. And then we left.

[00:38:06] Jason: No, we're joking, obviously.

[00:38:07] Caroline: We left.

[00:38:09] Jason: I'm not at all against using Instagram again for WAIM. I just think there are a couple things for me that if I was in control that how I would do it, which is I wouldn't do it ourselves because I just don't want to spend the time. I'd rather leverage our time into something else. I would have somebody else creating that content for us. I would be very strategic about it's more like business focus and I think you don't want to do business focused stuff. I think you want to do more like human relation...

[00:38:36] Caroline: No, I don't know what I'm going to create yet.

[00:38:38] Jason: Yeah.

[00:38:38] Caroline: That's the point is that I do want it to be business focused and very separate from my personal account, which is more personal focus, which is personal growth stuff. I want to sprinkle that in because I think that's what makes WAIM special is like we are not out here just giving cut and dry business advice. We're very much talking about the human being. I mean, it's why we focus on solo creators because it's the messiness of trying to evolve your business as you evolve as a person. I think that's interesting. I think that's what makes our brand unique. And so, yes, there's going to be overlap there. I just guess I'm pointing out that, I don't know, it seems like you have this block of about it when it comes to Wandering Aimfully and I'm just wondering what the difference is between Teachery and Wandering Aimfully.

[00:39:22] Jason: Yeah. And I think the difference is with Teachery, the way I'm going to go about it is very strategic towards business results first. And with WAIM, I think we used it for business before and we have the results that weren't that much as it related to increasing sales for WAIM.

[00:39:39] Caroline: I think it's probably also... Sitting with that question, I think it's because it is me doing the content, you are leaning more into that input, output exercise of what am I putting in and what am I getting out?

[00:39:52] Jason: Exactly.

[00:39:53] Caroline: But you're not accounting for the enjoyment that I get out of it.

[00:39:56] Jason: For sure. 100%. And I know for myself, I don't enjoy creating that content. And again, I'm really not trying to come off like a curmudgeon on this episode. I'm actually, what I'm trying to do is, come off as hopefully something that is relatable for some of the people...

[00:40:10] Caroline: Totally. I don't...

[00:40:11] Jason: ...listening to this who are like...

[00:40:11] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:40:11] Jason: ...I don't want to create Instagram content. Like, I don't want to find the best photos. I don't want to comb through the video footage. I don't want to find the graphics. I don't want to pull this together. I don't want to figure out what editing thing I have to do. Like, I just think we only get so much time every day in our lives, as we all know this.

[00:40:27] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:40:27] Jason: Some people have even a lot less time than we do.

[00:40:30] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:40:30] Jason: We're very fortunate with the amount of time that we have. And I think that if you're saying, hey, if you have the option to spend, like let's be honest, what it takes to make decent content on Instagram. It's at least one to two hours a day, at least. At a bare minimum. Like it's not less than that. If you're doing research, if you're recording something, if you're editing something, if you're writing captions, if you're posting, like it adds up very quickly. And I think if you start to extrapolate that out, you're like, okay, I've just given myself now a new job every week that costs me 10 hours of time, maybe on the high end, but maybe not. What am I getting for that time?

[00:41:08] Caroline: I hear you. But my rebuttal to that, first of all, I don't think you're being a curmudgeon. I think this is what I wanted this podcast to be because I think both of us bring a different perspective and probably a lot of you all listening, maybe there's two voices in your head that one sounds like Jason, and one sounds like Caroline, and they're arguing for different points, right?

[00:41:27] Jason: Yeah.

[00:41:27] Caroline: There's a part of you that doesn't want to be on it. There's a part of you that doesn't enjoy it. Or maybe you're the person where there's a part of you that does enjoy it, but you're worried about disrupting your peace. So I hope that this is, at least, an interesting episode that... I mean, we're mainly asking questions. We're not giving you any answers. But that is what we hope to bring, is make it more relatable of the things you're thinking about. But I am just, I'm wondering like... Well, okay, two things. I have a very juicy question that I'm trying to decide if I should ask you.

[00:41:55] Jason: Oh, sure, go for it. I love juicy questions.

[00:41:57] Caroline: Because now we're here and people have heard us argue a little bit, and I'm like, anybody who's here in the latter half of the episode, like they're probably here for the juice. 

[00:42:06] Jason: Bring it.

[00:42:07] Caroline: Back to the sharpening knives conversation. Is there not a part of you that thinks if I'm going to be a business educator, if people are going to be in my community learning from me about how to run a business, and you agree that we both had, whether you say it's number three or number five or whatever, in our top five of what marketing methods... Oh, keyword activities... That I was lost my trail of thought, and then I went into my juicy question. So we'll come back to that. But it was both of our top fives of if I started a business. And most of the people in WAIM are starting businesses or at least trying to grow them from more of a beginner to intermediate stage. Doesn't it behoove you, as a business educator and business coach, to engage in the tactics that you think are relevant in 2025 and beyond and be practicing what you preach?

[00:43:03] Jason: Yeah. So I think...

[00:43:04] Caroline: That's my juicy question.

[00:43:05] Jason: Sure, sure. So to take the knives metaphor even further, as a chef/baker, you have a handful of knives you can choose from. Those knives are all the marketing tactics that we talked about.

[00:43:15] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:18] Jason: YouTube is like your standard chef's knife or whatever. Instagram is like a paring knife, whatever. Threads is like a deboning knife, a very skinny, flexible knife. Right?

[00:43:29] Caroline: Now, you're really just flexing on your knife knowledge. And so, it's a different podcast.

[00:43:33] Jason: Anyway, my point...

[00:43:34] Caroline: Bring it to On The Rise, okay?

[00:43:36] Jason: My Point is that I think as a business educator, you get to choose which knives you want to tell people to use...

[00:43:42] Caroline: Of course.

[00:43:43] Jason: ...that you like.

[00:43:43] Caroline: Of course.

[00:43:44] Jason: So I think part of this is like... And we've actually done, I think a good job of this with our Wandering Aimfully community, which is people are like, "Hey, can you give me some advice on an Instagram strategy?" And we're like, "Actually, we can't." And the reason is because we haven't been on Instagram for three years, so we literally don't know what to do...

[00:43:59] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:44:00] Jason: ...so we would tell you. So I think for me, I'm actually okay with the fact of saying I'm not using these tactics. So I'm not even going to learn how to use a knife that I know I don't want to use because, for me, and the way I want to run my life in business, that knife is not an enjoyable knife for me to use.

[00:44:18] Caroline: And I hear that. But wouldn't you agree that let's say, your favorite knives are an email newsletter...

[00:44:25] Jason: YouTube channel?

[00:44:25] Caroline: A YouTube channel like let's say those are your favorite knives. But even you would agree on the last podcast that if you were trying to start a newsletter, you would need a discovery channel for that.

[00:44:37] Jason: Which is why I said YouTube. And again, we went into last episode with like, it's a brand-new business that you have no...

[00:44:43] Caroline: Okay. But I would argue that YouTube has brought just the same amount of results to WAIM sales as Instagram.

[00:44:51] Jason: Sure, absolutely. I would totally agree with you. But the difference is the input for YouTube. Like, what I have to do to create YouTube videos is less time than I would need to put in for the amount of time you have to put in for social media content to actually work.

[00:45:07] Caroline: Well, that's not an experiment that we could run because...

[00:45:11] Jason: No, but I think you would agree, right? Like you watched me do our content extravaganza YouTube videos, and the way that I figured out a system for myself to work through those videos was very optimized, systematized. I outsourced the editing. I've got a really good system down for the script writing and the video recording. I literally spent like two hours a week to produce one video per week.

[00:45:34] Caroline: Yeah, but here's what's funny is you were able to systematize that. I think the same thing could be true for an Instagram strategy. The problem is the way that I learn is like... And this is a perfect... I actually had a note here of what happened to our content extravaganza from the spring of this year? Because people are like, "Wait a second, I thought you guys were going to go back on Instagram." And the problem, A... The many problems was it was too much trying to do it for two businesses at the same time. B, I was trying to over optimize the process from the beginning. Like I thought it was smart to be like, well, I need to make sure that I am creating a process that is even doable across two brands for however many times we were trying to post. But I just made it too complicated from the beginning instead of giving myself the messy space to just like put up bad stuff until I got my own process going. Do you know what I mean?

[00:46:27] Jason: Yeah.

[00:46:27] Caroline: So I think you could get the same, like an Instagram strategy dialed in to where it was still just as much input for a YouTube channel.

[00:46:37] Jason: I would like to see it. I think in our history of doing it. I don't disagree with you. Like, I think it is possible. I just think in our own history of posting on Instagram, I've watched you have to put in so much time to create the content.

[00:46:52] Caroline: Well, this goes back to my keyword activities, which is an interesting point to bring up at the end here, which I think we're getting to. Which is...

[00:47:01] Jason: I think we're just getting started.

[00:47:03] Caroline: I feel like you're so hung up on this idea of time, and I understand why, because you're the efficiency of our business.

[00:47:08] Jason: I'm older.

[00:47:09] Caroline: But...

[00:47:09] Jason: I have lots of... I'm literally dying.

[00:47:12] Caroline: Fodder time is really...

[00:47:13] Jason: Yeah.

[00:47:13] Caroline: You're really seeing hung up on fodder time. This idea of how much time is going into it. You're spending time and it's like you're like, oh, one to two hours every day doing Instagram. And I'm like, but as a business owner, aren't those just the things, those activities that you're going to be doing anyway? It's like you're going to be doing a handful of things. Creating products and marketing them.

[00:47:36] Jason: Yeah.

[00:47:36] Caroline: And servicing your customers. Those are like the three buckets probably of things that you're going to be doing. And so, I just think to myself that's what marketing is in 2025.

[00:47:48] Jason: Yeah. But...

[00:47:48] Caroline: So who cares if it's one to two hours on Instagram, or one to two hours on cold emails, or one to two hours on being in paid communities, or one or two hours on creating a YouTube video? Like to your point, it doesn't matter what knife you're using. And then this goes to my second point, which is, what if I just like this knife and isn't that enough?

[00:48:09] Jason: For sure, absolutely. But do you like posting on Instagram for Wandering Aimfully?

[00:48:13] Caroline: Well, I do. I think I have the itch to go back to it for the exact reason, that brings me back to the thing that we talked about the very beginning, which is it's a means of creative expression for me. I enjoy it. I love trying to figure out what's the latest feature of Canva so that I can create branded graphics. I love thinking about a new process for scripting something, I love trying to figure out short form video and like, are there parts of it that are frustrating? Yeah. When I'm like in comparison mode, when it's the classic your taste is higher than your ability to execute. Like, it's frustrating, don't get me wrong. And all of those things. But I think when I focus on the process is when I enjoy social media the most and when I focus on the results, it's when I like it the least.

[00:48:59] Jason: Yeah.

[00:49:00] Caroline: And that's on me.

[00:49:02] Jason: Yeah, for sure. I just, I firmly believe, and have believed for, again, 10 years, that you only get so many hours. You do have to market and promote your business in some way. This is an absolute truth. But I think we have figured out in these past couple years that you don't have to be on these platforms just because they are the platforms where people spend the most of their time to create promotion and marketing for your business. Like, you can do other things. And I think what we've chosen to do these past couple of years is a lot less because what we realized was, we actually don't have to put in more hours to reach our enough number. We just had to be strategic about setting everything up and having systems in place and having processes. I think the place that we're at now is we're seeing like, okay, revenue has leveled off. We're not going up at all. If anything, we're going a little bit down, but that could be due to raising the price. It could be due to our audience hasn't grown. And so, I think what we're doing is we're trying to share with everybody, hey, we're noticing these things. We want to do something to correct those things, like have things go back up. My whole point in this entire conversation is that historically I have never seen Instagram move the needle enough for it to be worth my time and energy to do it. I'm totally happy for you to do it. That's absolutely fine. If we were to choose for Wandering Aimfully what I would say would be the thing that I would spend time doing, it would be YouTube going back to our pick five thing of the things that we would do.

[00:50:28] Caroline: But I think this is so funny because, again, you go back to move the needle enough. What do you think moves the needle then?

[00:50:34] Jason: Like right now with our business? I think it's writing a really great email newsletter.

[00:50:38] Caroline: You think that moves the needle?

[00:50:40] Jason: Absolutely, I think for sure. Because when we go off of it and we come back and people are excited that we're back, I think the fact that whenever we do a launch of Wandering Aimfully, we get emails from people that are like, these are even the best sales emails. Like, I'm not ready to buy Wandering Aimfully, but I love reading your sales emails. Like, it's just, you're humans. You're sharing something that I'm very interested in. It seems very helpful. Like, I think we get a lot of positive results from people.

[00:51:02] Caroline: Then why are we not pouring all of our time and energy into growing the email newsletter?

[00:51:08] Jason: Because I think it's just a matter of, we're not... Like, I think right now, as of recording this episode, we are at the place where we are ready to start pouring some time back into our business that we have not been spending for the past year or two. And so, I think we haven't fully decided what that thing is. I think the other thing is I am fully letting go of control of dictating where Wandering Aimfully goes. So I'm fine if you want to use Instagram. I just am not interested in making Instagram content for Wandering Aimfully, which we both... Like, I've never really done anyway, so it doesn't really matter. But I'm just having the conversation from my side of what I would do if I was going to be in charge and do things, which I'm not. I'm just sharing in this conversation.

[00:51:48] Caroline: But you can see how that would be a little bit frustrating for the person who is like, okay, cool, you wanted to take more of Teachery. And like, I'm going to take more of Wandering Aimfully. And so, it's like, cool, run with it. Like, do your own thing. But it's like to feel kind of an energy of closed offness from your business partner. When you're sort of like, okay, well, this is where I'm feeling an itch to get back to this thing. It's like you can see how that might feel some type of way.

[00:52:20] Jason: Sure. But I think the really important part there is that all I'm doing is you're asking me how I feel about using Instagram for our business, just a very point blank. And I'm sharing with you how I feel about it. I'm not telling you to stop doing it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it if that's how you want to spend your time. I'm just sharing with you my thoughts on it doesn't seem like something I would want to spend my time on. That's all. And so, I think to understand your point, yes, it might be a little bit weird, but I think you could also argue like our Slack community feels the same way a little bit for you, where it's like, you don't get a lot of value of spending time in the Slack community. And if anything, it actually like it takes you out of like all your creativity.

[00:53:04] Caroline: It's very different because I think the Slack community is one of the most valuable things. So it's like I actually like, respect the work that you do there...

[00:53:15] Jason: Yeah.

[00:53:15] Caroline: ...and the effort that you pour in like of the highest degree. And so, you can feel my support of you pouring energy into that. And even if it's something that maybe drains my energy and it's hard for me to be there all the time because of just the way that I'm built. But I have the utmost respect for that work and the role that it plays in our business. What I'm trying to share with you is I get that from your perspective, you're like, well, I'm just sharing my thoughts, and I wouldn't want to be on social media and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I get that. And you're entitled to those feelings. And it's like, this is the space where I wanted to share that. That being said, you have to also see that as the person who is trying to come up with what our marketing mix is going to be for the next year. If I'm feeling this like fun and lighthearted desire to just be experimental and see and sharpen my knives and like see what's going on Instagram again and see if it moves a needle, but maybe it doesn't, that's fine. But I'm in this space of exploration and possibility, and it feels like your perspective on it is not malleable enough to the degree that you're willing to give an inch at all and having the respect that this is something that we're going to spend our time on.

[00:54:30] Jason: Sure.

[00:54:30] Caroline: Like, it's just hard for me to want to pour energy into it. Of course, I'm going to do it regardless, because I can do whatever I want in our...

[00:54:37] Jason: Yeah.

[00:54:37] Caroline: It's our business. But it's like I don't feel that same respect and support coming from your side if I know that you're like, this is just a waste of time.

[00:54:46] Jason: Sure. Can I give you two things there?

[00:54:48] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:54:48] Jason: Number one, I feel the same way how you feel about me in running our Slack community as you basically running our email newsletter. So while you don't necessarily do a lot for the marketing of the newsletter for anything, we don't spend much time on that at all. The creation and the production of our newsletter is mostly you at this point. And I think you do an amazing job. And it is why I like our newsletter so much because you do such a good job with it. So I think that's an agreement in how you look at that and how I look at our email newsletter. So it's like...

[00:55:20] Caroline: Sure. But again, I'm not saying I'm doing anything to try to grow the newsletter or market it.

[00:55:28] Jason: That, I understand. That, I understand. We're not trying to do anything to grow or market our Slack community and Wandering Aimfully.

[00:55:33] Caroline: Well, that's why it's a bad comparison.

[00:55:34] Jason: No, I think it's actually...

[00:55:35] Caroline: On the effort part, I totally get what you're saying...

[00:55:37] Jason: Okay.

[00:55:37] Caroline: ...and I really appreciate that. I just...

[00:55:38] Jason: Yeah. Okay. So my second point, and I think that this is actually the more important one is... And again, this is a little bit nuanced and in the weeds and probably doesn't matter for a lot of people listening because we just run two businesses and most people don't.

[00:55:50] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:50] Jason: So I have taken over control of Teachery again. I know that some of the decisions that I'm making, like on our page builder and like future features, you actually disagree with how I'm having it done. And it may even be something where it's like you don't even like the way the feature is going to turn out. I, as the person who is in control of that, I'm a little bit like... I wish she liked it because I love you and I want you to like everything that I do. But in that moment, I'm like, but this is a business and I'm making a decision to move the business forward. I care more about the fact that I have strong feelings and going that direction with the business and less about having to make you feel good about the decisions that I've made. So I think it's an apt comparison where I'm going to make decisions on Teachery that I know you disagree with, and you don't like and you probably don't even think that feature is valuable. Right? But I'm going to spend the time and the effort and the dollars in development to do it because I believe that it's going to move the business forward. Whether I can quantify perfectly or not, that's going to do it. I think it's the same way that you should feel about running Instagram for WAIM, which is like you know that on the whole, I don't necessarily think this is the best use of your time and creativity and it could go somewhere else. I don't have an answer for what that is. Just like you don't have an answer for what the next great feature of Teachery should be. But I think it's a similar situation where you just decide, okay, but I'm going to create Instagram content for WAIM because I want to, and you may disagree with the fact that this is a great use of my time, but I believe in it, and I want to see it through because I want to see what happens in the next three, six, nine, 12 months.

[00:57:27] Caroline: Well, yeah, and I'm going to do that regardless. I guess it's just we're different in that regard where you are fine to just do everything with Teachery. And like, you said it would be nice if I... But you're not even cluing me in. Like, I don't even know, you know what I mean? But when it comes to creating content for Instagram, it's so much a part of, I'm grabbing video clips or I'm doing this or that. Like it's so much more visible to you in your bubble than like a feature you're working on with Teachery is to me. Right?

[00:58:01] Jason: Yeah.

[00:58:01] Caroline: And so, it's like the friction of that is more palpable and present than any friction that you would feel from me disagreeing with something you're doing with Teachery because it's just not in my zone of awareness.

[00:58:12] Jason: Sure, I understand that point.

[00:58:13] Caroline: Right.

[00:58:13] Jason: But do you get my point, though? And that I've separated how you think about Teachery and that I want to take it in a direction, and I want to do things with it. And I know you disagree, but I believe in those things. And so, I'm going to do them anyway because that's what I think is best for that business. And so, I think in this...

[00:58:29] Caroline: Yeah. But again, it's like, I think we're having two totally different conversations, which is that I don't want to go back on Instagram because I think it's so good for our business. I want to go back on Instagram because I want to sharpen my skills and I want to express myself, and I feel bored in our business sometimes, and I want something that feels new again, and I want to connect with our customers to get reinspired about our mission as a company. And none of those things have anything to do with trying to make more money. And they have everything to do with just trying to grow as a person and a business owner in 2025.

[00:59:11] Jason: Yeah. And that I think we're in a different place with. Those things don't resonate as much with me. And so, I don't want you not to do those things at all. Like I'm totally fine for you to do them because that's what you are interested in. That's what you're itching to do. And I think that that's... It's an interesting place to be because if you're just doing it for the creative expression and the connection and it's not necessarily looking for a business ROI, then I think it's just important for us to both have that conversation and understand that's why you're doing it. And I think if someone's listening to this and it's like, "Well, I have even less time than you guys. Like should I be on Instagram or should I be making YouTube videos? Like, what's the thing that's right for me?" And I think the answer there is you're only going to know by doing it to see if it gives you a return for that time.

[00:59:58] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:59:59] Jason: And then deciding like, oh, my people aren't on TikTok, so I don't need to be on TikTok.

[01:00:04] Caroline: Exactly. Which goes back to our ethos and at the very beginning, which is just, it's all an experiment.

[01:00:07] Jason: Yeah.

[01:00:08] Caroline: So it's like it's an experiment for what works in terms of the goals you're trying to reach with your business, but it's also an experiment in terms of engaging with an activity so that you can feel as a person, do I enjoy this?

[01:00:20] Jason: Yeah.

[01:00:20] Caroline: And I think what you're seeing in this episode is you do not enjoy the sharing, which we're going to dive deep on and understand. We're going to get to the heart of that. But you don't and I do. And so, I think that is maybe what's the reason we have this conversation once a year and we always end up in the same place is because we're two different people.

[01:00:39] Jason: Yeah, for sure.

[01:00:39] Caroline: And we're arguing for tactics that make us feel different things.

[01:00:44] Jason: Yeah. And I think it's worth sharing this episode like this. And I know it's probably a little bit uncomfortable for you. It's a little bit uncomfortable for me, too. But I think it's worth it because I think these are the conversations that are going on in a single person's head.

[01:00:58] Caroline: Yeah, I know.

[01:00:58] Jason: Is that they have a Team Jason, and they have a Team Caroline, and they're constantly battling the like, but shouldn't I be doing this? or should I stop doing this? Or I feel like I don't want to do this anymore or I'm feeling really drawn to doing this thing. And I think it is difficult to parse out what is the right move there.

[01:01:16] Caroline: Well, I didn't even get to all the stuff I wanted to talk about because it's like, I feel like we spent so much time debating on should we, or shouldn't we? I wanted to talk about I'm going to, which goes to your point at the end there. I'm going to, regardless. And I wanted to talk about how hard that is and why, because I feel like we had the same exact conversation six months ago, and I never even got around to being able to post. And there's just so much more I want to say about and why I just feel the need to get back to it is because I don't like this feeling. This feeling is like, it feels like I'm staring down like a fence that is insurmountable right now in terms of resistance. And I never used to feel that way. Like, I used to feel so free to express myself. I used to feel like I could start a newsletter, start a business, create a website, write a blog post, post a piece of art on Instagram. And what I wanted to explore is the downside of when you pull back for many, many years, your knives get so dull that the resistance feels so insurmountable.

[01:02:27] Jason: Well, I have baking to do in an hour, so I still have plenty of time if you want to keep discussing things. But if you want to keep it to a separate episode, we can go to a separate episode and do that. I know this episode didn't go the exact way that you wanted it to go, but I think it is a worthwhile conversation for people to hear, and I think that that's what we hear from people who listen to this podcast, whether they're new or not. They're not new, is that they the messy middle of it.

[01:02:50] Caroline: Totally.

[01:02:50] Jason: Trying to parse these things out and trying to figure out what is the right move forward.

[01:02:55] Caroline: I think what's really happening and why it feels so uncomfortable, which is just something that we encounter often, which is difficult about running a business with your spouse, is sometimes the lines get blurred between business decisions and your partner. And I think what's really happening is that going back to what I was saying of this is a decision that I've made that I'm feeling pulled to do, and I want to be in a place of openness and experimentation and possibility. And I think what I'm really emotionally responding to with how this conversation has gone, and it's no fault of yours. Like you're right. You're entitled to every single opinion that you have. It's that I want my partner to match my openness. Do you know what I mean? Like I want my partner to be on the same emotional frequency with my approach to these things, because it makes me feel close to you, right? Like, if I'm like, oh, I'm just like, I don't know, what does Instagram look like next year for us? Like let let's try a bunch of different stuff. And I feel the energy... And again, this is not a criticism. This is a reflection of how this conversation has gone. I feel like your energy is very much like concrete. Like you are standing in concrete. You're like, this is how I feel. I don't want to do it. I don't think it's worthwhile. And I'm extrapolating...

[01:04:19] Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:04:19] Caroline: ...based on interpretation, but what I'm actually responding to is not your opinion about social media, It's the, unfortunately, the more human element of we disagree on this thing and it's uncomfortable because I want you to match... I want you to meet me in that space of possibility. Does that make sense?

[01:04:40] Jason: Yeah, for sure. And I think it's also we rarely disagree on anything.

[01:04:44] Caroline: I know.

[01:04:44] Jason: So it is one of those things that is difficult because it's not something that we deal with often. And I think... I don't know. Like, I think a part of this is it's great that we work on so many things and we overlap. And our Venn diagram of things that we've done together the past couple years is almost two completely covered circles that are just on top of each other, which...

[01:05:03] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:05:04] Jason: What's up? And I think they are pulling apart. And I think that that is, it feels very weird.

[01:05:10] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:05:11] Jason: And I think that's also okay, though.

[01:05:13] Caroline: Totally.

[01:05:14] Jason: And I think the other part of it is I would never want to drag you through. I'm using the word drag, loosely. I would never want to drag you through doing something that you don't want to do just because I'm really excited about it.

[01:05:25] Caroline: Totally.

[01:05:25] Jason: Would I be a little bit bummed that you're not interested in it, but I actually have plenty of hobbies or things that I like that you really have zero interest in.

[01:05:32] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:05:33] Jason: And I've gotten to the point where I'm just like, it's okay. Like, I would have loved so much a year ago for you to play Tears of the Kingdom with me. That game was so amazing. I had so much fun. It literally was one of the highlights of the past 10 years for me of things that I've done. And I wanted so badly for you to grab the controller, start your own story, play it. I could help you explore things, but you weren't interested. And it was a little bit of a bummer, but it was also me being like, but that's okay because it's like, it brought me the joy that I wanted, and you didn't have to enjoy it for it to be enjoyable for me.

[01:06:05] Caroline: And I totally, I think that's a good metaphor. But imagine this, it's one thing for me to be like, it's not really my thing. But imagine if I was like, this feels like a waste of your time.

[01:06:18] Jason: Yeah. And I understand.

[01:06:20] Caroline: You know what I'm saying?

[01:06:20] Jason: Yeah, for sure.

[01:06:20] Caroline: Like, that's what I'm just trying to show you is the part that I'm finding uncomfortable is it's one thing to be like, we're on our separate journeys and you're going to put time into this. And I'm excited to see whatever where you take it and what you do with it, but to know that your opinions on it are so rooted in this idea of this is not worthwhile, that is the thing that feels kind of disconnecting. And to use your analogy, again, imagine if you were spending time playing Tears of the Kingdom, you enjoy it, and I go, this is a waste of your time.

[01:06:57] Jason: Yeah, I hear that point. I think that's a very fair and valid point. And I think the change that I can make in the way that I respond to you is knowing the reason and the goal of why you're going to spend hours on Wandering Aimfully's Instagram. If you really are not doing it because it's ROI for the business, like that's not the concrete thing, the thing is expression and connection, I can be totally open for that because that's 100% what those platforms are for. They're for that, not for necessarily growing a un-boring coaching business. And I think that that can change the way that I can soften and how I respond to you working on those things. Because I know you're going to want to share little bits of our life, and I know you're going to want to share little things that we're doing, and I know you're going to want to share if I do something really stupid or goofy, you're like, "Hey, can I capture this and share it?" And I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to be opposed to that. I think the thing for me that provides or that creates the concreteness is the fact that for our situation specifically, it feels like a waste of time to spend hours on Instagram trying to sell the things that we sell as opposed to if we really cared to grow the revenue, I think there are smarter ways to spend our time and energy.

[01:08:12] Caroline: Well, then I think here's where we take the conversation, because you've said that a few times. And I am interested in, let's say, apart from the creative expression, apart from the connection, let's say from the marketing aspect of it, in terms of marketing the business, growing the audience, because we have the other part dialed in and we're tweaking things with like the offer and our offer stack and all those things. But we can agree our newsletter is clearly still converting sales. Right? You even said it, the audience is just not growing then at a rate where you're getting new people in. And so, that's going to obviously relate to a decline. I mean, I say decline like it's so drastic.

[01:08:53] Jason: Yeah, it's not. Yeah.

[01:08:54] Caroline: Literally the revenue is stable. So then my next question is become you've said there are so many other things that you could be spending time on to grow the business and grow the audience. So let me just put it to you then. What do you think those things are?

[01:09:09] Jason: Okay. So I'm going to answer that question in a way that I feel is more fairly posed to me, which is if I had to decide what to do with Wandering Aimfully's marketing hours in 2025, what would I do?

[01:09:20] Caroline: Instead of Instagram.

[01:09:21] Jason: Instead of Instagram.

[01:09:22] Caroline: Just curiosity.

[01:09:23] Jason: Sure. So I would do a weekly video on YouTube and I would experiment with different topics and different focuses. So I think a couple times we've done like a little bit of like an SEO long form focus. I think you came up with a really good framework for us to figure out the summer, the content matrix of like what type of content people would actually be looking for or trying to find. I would go back to that and try and figure out, like identify the things that we care about. So anyway, I would do different experiments on YouTube of different things.

[01:09:52] Caroline: Didn't we do that? Didn't we just do that?

[01:09:55] Jason: I think, yeah, we did, for sure. And I think the content direction that we chose didn't work. So I would go, okay, that content direction didn't work. What's a different content direction? So it would be changing up in different experiments of using YouTube in different ways to try and see how that would attract an audience and do things. So maybe it'd be more platform focused, maybe it would be more talking about different apps. Like, I think there's a lot of things that we could do, but just a weekly YouTube video would be my answer for that. The second thing I think would be identifying podcasts where we could be guests and pitching ourselves as guests to be on shows to tell the story of building a lifetime membership and how unique the pricing is and how unique the offer is and how it goes against almost all other membership and coaching programs.

[01:10:37] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:38] Jason: And just go on a circuit of being in front of other people's audiences and doing things.

[01:10:41] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:41] Jason: I think those two things would fill the hours that you're going to spend on Instagram. And I think my personal hypothesis is that it would be a better result long term for growing the audience and growing the sales of Wandering Aimfully.

[01:10:57] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:58] Jason: But I'm just, I'm answering that question from you asking me, if I was to choose. I also just want to go back to this point. Like we had a conversation earlier this summer. We shared it on the podcast. Like, I want you to feel empowered to do whatever you want in Wandering Aimfully. I want to have these conversations so that if you want to use Instagram and you need me to not be so concrete because it's making you not enjoy that process, we have this conversation, and I can hear from you. Okay. Again, it's not about really trying to increase the revenue specifically. It's about creative expression and community and like, trying to be in a space where you want to spend time. Then I can be more open to that because I think that totally makes sense for the platform, for sure.

[01:11:41] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:41] Jason: So I don't know if that's a...

[01:11:44] Caroline: Well, we've yet again arrived at a place in the conversation where I feel like you are hearing me and coming around to my side a little bit more. And I'm hearing you and coming around to your side a little more because I'm like every time you repeat back to me my words, where you're like, it's just for creative expression and community. And I'm like, if I'm being ruthlessly honest with myself, it's like, well, yeah, it is, but also, obviously, it's a time suck and I don't want it to do nothing for our business.

[01:12:12] Jason: Yeah.

[01:12:12] Caroline: So I hear what you're saying also, and I know that as we, fingers crossed, become parents, we're going to have even less time. Right?

[01:12:22] Jason: Exactly.

[01:12:22] Caroline: So it is about being ruthless with where's your time going and for what payoff. So I hear that. Again, you've made some good points, but I think I did as well.

[01:12:35] Jason: Yeah, for sure. And again, I know I've said this multiple times in this podcast episode. I truly believe that there are people listening to this and they have both of us in their ears and they have both sides, and they are wrestling with this. And I think, if anything, all of this hour plus long podcast episode is going to do is reassure you that you're thinking about it in the way that everybody thinks about it, person listening to this. There is no perfect answer here.

[01:13:03] Caroline: Totally.

[01:13:03] Jason: There are all of the people on Instagram who are growing big Instagram followers who are telling you...

[01:13:07] Caroline: Right.

[01:13:07] Jason: ...got to be on Instagram. And like, the problem is because that perpetuates their business growing.

[01:13:13] Caroline: I know. But is that a problem or is it the more optimistic take, which is just a beautiful reminder that there is no one path to success in your business.

[01:13:23] Jason: Yeah.

[01:13:25] Caroline: Instagram isn't the silver bullet. YouTube isn't the silver bullet. Like podcast guest hosting is not the silver bullet. None of it is like the magical thing that works 100% of the time. All of it is about experimenting until you find the thing that is enjoyable to you so you can enjoy the process. And you enjoy the process so much that you'll do it consistently that it'll bring results.

[01:13:52] Jason: Yeah.

[01:13:52] Caroline: That's really the name of the game. And so, I guess where I'm at right now is I don't know if Instagram is the thing that is so enjoyable to me that I will do it consistently, that it will bring results, but I would like to experiment with that to see again.

[01:14:08] Jason: Yeah, for sure. And that I totally understand. And I think that that is good fodder for future episodes of maybe the next episode after this, or if we have a couple more that we've already planned, and we come back to the new year is like what is the plan? Like, what is the experiment? How can we track along and actually give some reports back on how you've been feeling about it, what you've been testing, what you've been trying?

[01:14:30] Caroline: I would love to just do an entire podcast episode of how many wrong... Not wrong, but like I definitely needed this year to teach me a lot of lessons, but I feel like if I could do it over, I would have made so many different choices this year, knowing what I know now. And one of them is I just feel like I was so results oriented this year and I'm at this place with our business where I just want to not care about the results for a second.

[01:15:00] Jason: Yeah.

[01:15:01] Caroline: I know that not everyone is in that place. Like, I think when you're not making enough money, like you do have to be very results ruthless. But for us right now, we are at a place where the income is stable, and I want to be in a much more experimental mindset.

[01:15:18] Jason: Yeah. And that, I think is I'm obviously very open to, because it's all I'm doing with Teachery. Like my plan for the next six months is continue the AdWords, then do a three-month content UGC thing. Then after that do a sponsorship/sponsored newsletter post/sponsored podcast episode, like see what that does. And I know that it seems simple because on the surface you're just like, yeah, but that's what every business does. They just like do these different things. But like not everybody has the financial advantage to do that. And moving to Teachery to a lifetime plan has given us the cash flow to be able to experiment more in those ways. And I'm just happy to be doing that for people so that I can report back.

[01:15:57] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:15:57] Jason: So that I can say here's what we've done and here's what we're doing. And really, this podcast is the only place that I am sharing those things and our WAIM community, I'm sharing them as well. But that actually gives me the interest of like, well, maybe I will start posting on BlueSky or Threads or something. If nothing else, just to share for like other people who are like me a couple years ago with Teachery...

[01:16:17] Caroline: Oh, interesting, interesting. So you have some stuff to share. Interesting. You want to connect with people. Interesting. Oh, okay.

[01:16:21] Jason: But I always come back to like, I don't think I'm going to do it though, because I just don't think it's worth the actual time and effort that it'll keep...

[01:16:30] Caroline: Exactly. And that is where you're blocking yourself because it always has to be about, is it worth the time? But sometimes the return isn't very easy to tell right away, Jason.

[01:16:41] Jason: Listen, as the person who made a real shitty batch of crinkle cookies, that felt like a waste of time, but all it did was make me want to make a better batch of crinkle cookies.

[01:16:49] Caroline: Exactly.

[01:16:49] Jason: So I'm okay with messing things up.

[01:16:51] Caroline: You have to be less rigid in your...

[01:16:53] Jason: Old age.?

[01:16:55] Caroline: Fodder time.

[01:16:56] Jason: Is there anything else you wanted to say? Because I know this episode did probably not go the way you wanted it to.

[01:17:00] Caroline: It really didn't. I didn't expect it to be couples therapy meets business. I don't think anyone got any concrete tactics or anything. But...

[01:17:10] Jason: How do you think all those new listeners enjoyed it?

[01:17:12] Caroline: The new listeners are like, I was a new listener, but now I'm out. No, I did tell you that I... You were like, where do you want to steer the podcast? And I said, I just want to normalize the ups and downs of running a business as a solo person.

[01:17:24] Jason: This is...

[01:17:24] Caroline: And you said, hold my beer. And you said, why don't I bring some of my...

[01:17:29] Jason: Bring some of our actual conversations that we have and see how it goes. And that's what we did.

[01:17:34] Caroline: Send us an email if you found this deeply uncomfortable or if you liked it a lot. We would love both.

[01:17:40] Jason: Some type of feedback would be helpful.

[01:17:41] Caroline: Some type of feedback would make me feel like this vulnerability was worth it. Thank you so much.

[01:17:46] Jason: Now, are you glad or not glad that we don't do a video podcast? Is this a better on video or worst?

[01:17:52] Caroline: I think actually the video would have been more helpful so people could see we weren't like that mad at each other. Now, I'm feeling self-conscious about did we... Like we're we respectful in our disagreement?

[01:18:04] Jason: Oh, for sure. I definitely think we were. And also, I listen to every episode that we put out.

[01:18:10] Caroline: Oh. Wow. Wow, wow.

[01:18:11] Jason: I'm like, I know there are moments when we've been recording where it's like off mic, we're looking at each other like, hmm, I don't know if I like that you said that. We're not saying anything.

[01:18:19] Caroline: Don't tell them. Don't tell them we do that.

[01:18:20] Jason: But you can't even hear it in the podcast.

[01:18:22] Caroline: No, I know.

[01:18:22] Jason: Like, even in the way that you think the conversation went.

[01:18:24] Caroline: Well, now they know that we throw eyes.

[01:18:27] Jason: I think they know as humans.

[01:18:28] Caroline: If we do video, they're going to see us throw eyes.

[01:18:30] Jason: This is true. Or we'll wear masks. It'll be the masked podcast, and they won't know it's us.

[01:18:34] Caroline: Eye mask?

[01:18:35] Jason: No, like full face. It's like the masked singer, but we're the masked podcasters and no one knows exactly who we are.

[01:18:41] Caroline: Yeah. Except for it says by Caroline and Jason.

[01:18:42] Jason: Exactly 100%. Or maybe just our first names, and then people can guess. But now we've told them...

[01:18:47] Caroline: What would your mask be?

[01:18:48] Jason: A lion.

[01:18:49] Caroline: I knew you were going to say big cat. I thought you're going to say ocelot.

[01:18:52] Jason: Yeah. No, no, that's not a recognizable. Everyone would be like, "What is a leopard?" And they'd be like, you're dumb. Obviously, it's an ocelot. Look at his ears. Come on.

[01:19:01] Caroline: You know by the ears. It's a dead giveaway.

[01:19:04] Jason: Gosh.

[01:19:04] Caroline: What would my mask be?

[01:19:05] Jason: Idiots. An elephant.

[01:19:07] Caroline: Oh.

[01:19:08] Jason: Because you'd never forget.

[01:19:10] Caroline: Okay.

[01:19:10] Jason: Anything.

[01:19:11] Caroline: Well, that's a good one to end on the lion and the elephant coming to you live.

[01:19:14] Jason: Maybe a giraffe. So just be like, awkwardly tall.

[01:19:17] Caroline: No, giraffe is my favorite. Yeah, I love that.

[01:19:18] Jason: It feel like so awkwardly tall.

[01:19:18] Caroline: Well, no, it's just the face, babe. You don't need the neck part.

[01:19:20] Jason: No, I think you need the neck. I think your eye holes are in the neck. And then you just have the head.

[01:19:24] Caroline: It's like one of those Halloween costumes that's like a optical illusion.

[01:19:27] Jason: Exactly. Yeah.

[01:19:28] Caroline: It's like a giraffe holding... Have you seen those ones...

[01:19:31] Jason: Yes, yes.

[01:19:31] Caroline: ...as like an alien holding... Yeah, it's that. It's that.

[01:19:34] Jason: All right, we're going to end the episode there. Team Jason, Team Caroline, send us an email or leave a comment on Spotify if you're on Spotify.

[01:19:42] Caroline: Team Zook. We're on the same team, Jas.

[01:19:43] Jason: Well, I think in this conversation you could choose to be like...

[01:19:45] Caroline: Okay.

[01:19:45] Jason: ...this is where I am thinking about as well. It's okay.

[01:19:47] Caroline: Okay. But we're not going to count the votes or anything, right?

[01:19:52] Jason: Of course. Cinnamon rollers, you're going to send an email.

[01:19:54] Caroline: Be on Team Caroline. Come on.

[01:19:55] Jason: Okay. Bye.