223 - Our fertility journey (so far) | Two early miscarriages in 3 months

[00:00:00] Caroline: Welcome to Growing Steady, the show where we help online creators like you build a calm business, one that's predictable, profitable, and peaceful. We're your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an un-boring business coaching program and Teachery, an online course platform for designers. Join us each week as we help you reach your business goals without sacrificing your well being in the process. Slow and steady is the way we do things around here, baby.

[00:00:29] Jason: All right, cinnamon rollers, that's you. Let's get into the show.

[00:00:37] Caroline: Well, this is going to be a different kind of episode, Jason.

[00:00:40] Jason: This is going to be a different kind of episode. I obviously have a lot to say. Mostly about me.

[00:00:46] Caroline: Actually, I'm going to go ahead and let you take it away, actually.

[00:00:48] Jason: Yeah, this is going to be a very different episode.

[00:00:50] Caroline: Obviously, if you clicked into this episode, you saw the title.

[00:00:53] Jason: You know the topic.

[00:00:54] Caroline: You know the topic. However, we do want to issue a little content warning at the top of this episode in case you just, you saw us pop up in your feed and you thought, gotta listen to those Zooks first thing.

[00:01:03] Jason: You don't even care what the title says.

[00:01:04] Caroline: And so we are going to be touching on topics such as pregnancy, such as pregnancy loss, such as miscarriages in this episode. And so if you are not in a place right now to want to hear those topics, totally understand. If that's hard for you, please do yourself a favor. Take care of yourself. Click out of the episode.

[00:01:23] Jason: Two other podcast recommendations?

[00:01:24] Caroline: One that I love always is Be There in Five by Kate Kennedy. If you are a millennial, especially a millennial woman, and so you just love talking all things like nostalgia. But also, how does it weave into the pop culture of today? This is just an ad for Be There in Five.

[00:01:41] Jason: Shout out to Fantasy Pros. I think if you're playing fantasy football this year, they do a great job of getting you kind of the updates. Doctor Chopra will be on there to give you the injury updates.

[00:01:50] Caroline: I feel like we're giving very, like, stereotypical gender roles.

[00:01:55] Jason: Of course.

[00:01:56] Caroline: Recommendations. But hey, you know, just be authentic.

[00:01:58] Jason: I'll also throw out Rewatchables.

[00:01:59] Caroline: Okay, great.

[00:02:00] Jason: Just a great movie review podcast.

[00:02:02] Caroline: Fantastic.

[00:02:02] Jason: I Hate It But I Love It is another one in case you want to. Do you have one more podcast real quick?

[00:02:05] Caroline: No, that's it.

[00:02:06] Jason: Okay, fantastic.

[00:02:07] Caroline: Great.

[00:02:08] Jason: Okay. That's how we're going to bring a little bit of levity throughout this episode.

[00:02:11] Caroline: Yes. And Jason, before we started, was like, I can, like, still make jokes, right? And I was like, you totally can because, as we discussed, we want this episode to be as authentic as possible to share with you all our experience of what this year has been like for us. And part of that is... I have no idea. This is probably the most we've, like, talked at length in terms of, like, telling the story of what we've been through the past few months.

[00:02:39] Jason: Yeah.

[00:02:39] Caroline: And so I have no idea how I'm going to feel in disclosing all of that information. But I said one thing I know for sure that you and I have used this year to ride the roller coaster of it all has been humor. And so we don't want that to detract from the very serious nature of the things we're discussing, but also, we want to be as authentic as possible. And humor is something that we use to just get through life.

[00:03:01] Jason: It's really just deflect emotions, you know?

[00:03:03] Caroline: And so you're gonna hear some of that. And, yeah, if I'm being totally honest, I personally am nervous to share our experience, because everyone's relationship to fertility and being a parent, not being a parent, is so unique and informed by their own lens that I'm, like, terribly afraid that I'm gonna say something insensitive and not realize it or say something not taking into account the plethora of other people's experiences. And that does scare me. But at the same time, I just want to be clear that this is our experience, because I want to be able to share the truth of, like, what it has been like for us without having to kind of dance around eggshells, I guess.

[00:03:52] Jason: Yeah.

[00:03:53] Caroline: And so I'm just saying that up top, so that you know that it is not my intention to say anything incorrectly or to say anything that could possibly be misconstrued. I just want to talk about our experience, um, as authentically as I possibly can.

[00:04:07] Jason: Now, we are going to give, like, sexual advice, right? I have notes here. Best positions.

[00:04:12] Caroline: That's part one.

[00:04:13] Jason: Okay. I just want to make sure this is the stuff I'm...

[00:04:15] Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we should totally do, like, a side.

[00:04:18] Jason: Again.

[00:04:19] Caroline: Sidebar. We're gonna get super graphic. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:04:21] Jason: Perfect example of what I'm bringing to this episode.

[00:04:23] Caroline: Great job, babe.

[00:04:24] Jason: Was that moment there. Also we're not gonna.

[00:04:27] Caroline: We're not gonna do that. He's just joking.

[00:04:29] Jason: Much. Go ahead.

[00:04:30] Caroline: Um, so let's get into it, Jason. So, again, as the title suggests, let's not make you listen to a million minutes of this episode to kind of tell you that the highlights. We've had a bit of a roller coaster of a year. And that has mainly been due to the fact that this summer, basically, we experienced two super early miscarriages. I don't really know exactly the terminology that I feel comfortable using. I switch it up for from time to time. Sometimes I say early pregnancy loss. That feels right to me. Miscarriage feels like a word that has a lot of... of course, I know that's what it was. We were pregnant twice, we miscarried twice. But there were very, very early pregnancies. The clinical term, which I dislike very strongly, is chemical pregnancies. You know, we lost those somewhere between four and five weeks. Right. So that's how early we're talking. They happened basically twice in three months, which I think adds to kind of the difficulty and the rollercoaster of it all, which we're going to share our experience and walk you through what that was like. But that's the top line of what we're talking about, so... and where we sit right now, as you'll hear probably at the end of this, is not pregnant and...

[00:05:47] Jason: Taking a little break.

[00:05:47] Caroline: Taking a break.

[00:05:48] Jason: For reasons we'll discuss.

[00:05:50] Caroline: For health reasons and trying to navigate this, like, very weird transition stage of our adult lives.

[00:05:57] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I think the part of this from my side as the person who, like, I always want to share more than less is because I just think, as it relates to money, as it relates to work, as it relates to how we live our lives, I think the more we normalize all of those things.

[00:06:16] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Jason: The less tricky some of them become. And as a person who does not pay attention to any content on miscarriages, pregnancy loss.

[00:06:25] Caroline: That's not everything in your feed right now?

[00:06:27] Jason: I don't ever look at those things. As I... as this started to happen to us and as I started to kind of look into it, you do realize, like, oh, okay. Like, this is an area where people don't talk about things, and then it can make it very difficult for when you're going through it, to find relatable content, if you will.

[00:06:43] Caroline: Totally.

[00:06:43] Jason: And I think that's just part of what we have always said with Wandering Aimfully just as an ethos and then goes back even before that. But just us as a couple is that we just want to talk about things. And we don't always want to talk about big taboo topics or, you know, touchy subjects, but I just think trying to share the journey so that if you're listening to this and maybe you've been through something like this, you're hearing two regular old people talk about this as well, so that maybe it makes you feel a little bit less alone in that.

[00:07:12] Caroline: Totally. And I know for me personally, like, as we have been going through this, I have looked to podcasts of people or YouTube videos of people describing their experience, and there's something very interesting, which is that someone can be having such a uniquely specific experience to them where the details are not the same as something that we've gone through, but the emotional experience around those details resonates for me, and it makes me feel less alone, and it makes me feel like, you know, I know people talk about all the time that, like, miscarriage is so common, and yet, you know, they say, like, not enough people talk about it. But now I kind of understand why because I do see more and more people talking about it, but I realize now that it's like, it's not because there's anything to be ashamed of. It's just for me personally, as someone who does tend to live my life more open than not, it's for me at least, it has been a very emotionally confusing time, and I just needed some time and space to be able to, like, wade through the braids of emotions, to be able to even formulate coherent sentences around what this experience has been like.

[00:08:21] Jason: Yeah. The wild thing that when you go through something like this and you do share it with anybody is it starts to, like, come out of the woodworks of how many people have had something similar happen.

[00:08:32] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:08:32] Jason: But you had no idea because, again, that doesn't come up in dinner conversation. You're not going to bring it up. And it's a very personal thing. And so I do think that is a very interesting observation of now having gone through this scenario this summer, we, as we have slowly told people in our lives, it's like people like, pop up like, oh, yeah, we had that happen, or we, you know, a couple of those, or we had, you know, this or that or whatever, and you're just like, oh, okay. I never would have known that, that you had gone through that as well.

[00:09:00] Caroline: Totally. And so I think that is part of the reason to share it. And also, Jason and I were just both getting to the place, especially with, you know, we know this is primarily a business podcast, but we've been having... I don't know, but we've been having a lot of conversations lately about business changes we want to make. And everything this year has turned out so differently than we thought it would, a lot having to do with, because we were going through a lot of these, like, personal changes, and it just anytime you go through a big thing in your life, it does change your perspective. It changes your goals, it changes your priorities. And so we were making, like, a lot of these. We were having a lot of these conversations about where we want to take the business and things. And we were like, oh, I think some very important context for the people who follow what we do with our business is why we're making all of these decisions. Or like, hey, you guys did that, like, content extravaganza and then never posted content? Like, what was up with that? And it's like, well, yeah, we were, we were doing some other stuff, you know.

[00:10:00] Jason: Weren't we?

[00:10:00] Caroline: Stop.

[00:10:01] Jason: Okay, sorry.

[00:10:03] Caroline: Start.

[00:10:03] Jason: Yeah, go ahead.

[00:10:05] Caroline: So I just think context is another reason, because I just, I don't... I don't like holding a stuff back, and I don't like people having to fill in the gaps themselves. But at the same time, it was really important to me, like, I was saying, to, like, be able to tell this experience and story from a place of a little bit of distance.

[00:10:25] Jason: Yeah. And it's a very interesting predicament to be in as people who show up online in a regular occurrence and do share some of our lives, is that when then something happens that's very personal, you're still showing up online, but you don't necessarily want to share that in the moment, so you kind of have to play this dance where you like...

[00:10:46] Caroline: Right. It's like, how can I be authentic while still holding?

[00:10:50] Jason: Yeah, it's like, you know.

[00:10:51] Caroline: Privacy.

[00:10:52] Jason: Yeah, well, like, you're... we're recording podcasts throughout the entire summer while this is happening, and you're feeling like crap one day, and yet we're still recording. And the easy answer be like, guys, just take, you know, take the week off or whatever. And we definitely talked about that. And, and we, we talked about sharing it earlier, and, you know, there's just. There's so many things that I think the point that I wanted to share here is it's a moment, I think, for all of us, especially because being online, it's so easy to jump to conclusions about people. It's so easy to make assumptions about people, and it's, it's very cliche, but it's just like, you don't always know what's going on behind the scenes, so just give people, like, just a little bit of leeway on stuff. Take a break before you, like, send a nasty email or, you know, criticize somebody or whatever, and just, like, take one step back and be like, what if something's going on in their life that kind of sucks? You know what, like, is this thing that I'm going to do, whether it's an email or a response or whatever, you know, any of that, is it, is it actually worth it? Or like, should I just take a second and be like, I'm just going to give them the benefit of the doubt that, like, things didn't go well and something else happened.

[00:11:53] Caroline: This is a tangent. Not to climb on my soapbox, but I told you this the other day. Something that I don't think we talk about enough is how simultaneously we're at this place in our society where mental health has never been a bigger topic of conversation. We've never been more aware of the necessity of good mental health and how poor mental health can really lead to bad outcomes and how, you know, we're sharing all the time about trying to reach out. You know, we're telling people to reach out for support. We're telling people to, you know, especially if they're like, depression, anxiety, we're talking about all these things and how important mental health is. And in that very same breath, it's like, we will see public people and we will assume the very worst of their intentions, and we will pile on and we will cyberbully and we will... people are in DM's saying absolutely atrocious things, and I'm like, how are those two things happening? Can we not just be a little bit more generous with our assumptions? Of course, that means hold people to account when necessary, but let's just be a little bit more. Offer up a little bit more grace. So that's a total side note and a total soapbox, which we're... I'm probably doing to avoid just talking about the topic at hand, but, okay, Jason, do you just want to dive into, give everyone more context of the backstory here of what this roller coaster has been like?

[00:13:17] Jason: Sure. Let's do it.

[00:13:18] Caroline: Okay. So we basically, at the top of this year, had decided that we were going to...

[00:13:27] Jason: This was the year.

[00:13:27] Caroline: This was the year we were going to start to try to conceive children this year. And those of you who have been listening for a long time will know that we've been basically saying, like, when we have kids, like, for like five to six to seven years.

[00:13:40] Jason: Yeah.

[00:13:41] Caroline: But we were very, very, very intentional about when we wanted to venture into this stage of life of parenting. We had many conversations. We had conversations about if we would have kids at all. We went down that road. We had conversations about, if we did, when would we want to? And the most important thing to both of us was that we were financially stable. We were physically stable, read, I was physically stable and mentally and emotionally stable enough to enter that stage of our lives, which would probably be the most stressful and challenging, feeling like we were the most capable. And at the top of that priority list also was, like, our relationship. We wanted to both be 100%, like, all in and, like, get to that place where we were both ready to make this deal where you are giving up your a lot of flexibility and freedom. Right.

[00:14:36] Jason: Like, yeah, you're moving into a whole different part of life. And, yeah. What's been very interesting, pulling back the curtain on our timeline is that, you know, 2018 probably would have been the earliest that we would have thought about starting to have the journey of having kids. And it was me, I was the one who pushed back on that timeline because we were just starting to get our footing with business.

[00:15:00] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:15:00] Jason: And this was really, like, it was a big transition because, like, you know, 2012, 2013, we were at the highest point of debt, the least amount of business success. 2015, we uprooted our lives and moved across the country. 2015, 2016, we got things kind of back going the right direction. 2017, we paid off our debt. We were living in California. We were loving life. And then 2018, we started Wandering Aimfully, and it was kind of like a starting over.

[00:15:26] Caroline: It was like, back to square one. Yeah.

[00:15:27] Jason: And I just... I really felt like we were good together, but it was just, it was a complexity to add to. We didn't have consistent revenue. It was just, and again, we... I think where a lot of this stems from is we both grew up in financially insecure households.

[00:15:42] Caroline: Right.

[00:15:43] Jason: And so when you grow up with that, especially, again, just speaking from our experience, we just didn't want to put kids through that, and we didn't want to put ourselves through that. And so...

[00:15:51] Caroline: And I knew. We both knew that financial stress is a big stressor on a relationship.

[00:15:56] Jason: Yeah.

[00:15:56] Caroline: You add kids to that, and both of us coming from divorced families, our relationship is always number one. Like, it's like, whatever we need to do to stay thriving as, like, a couple is always, like, at the top of that list. And so all of our decision making was very much with that in mind.

[00:16:15] Jason: Yeah. Then we... so it was really, like, my pushback in 2018 to be like, hey, I just want to wait a little bit longer. We had been talking about doing this year of travel at that point of, like, kind of like a final bucket list item. Obviously, you can travel with kids. People do it all the time, but just for us and knowing how difficult travel was for you.

[00:16:31] Caroline: Right.

[00:16:32] Jason: We just wanted to kind of wait. Then 2019 hits with your anxiety battles.

[00:16:36] Caroline: And health struggles and the worst bottom I've ever experienced in my life. So then...

[00:16:42] Jason: Probably wouldn't have been a good time to have a kid. Yeah. Obviously, we all know what happens in 2020.

[00:16:47] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:16:48] Jason: And then from there, it was just like, okay, it's just, it's not really a good time. Plus, obviously, with the pandemic, like, for us, it just didn't make sense. Uh, and just wasn't something that we wanted to take a risk on the health journey of it all. And then we got into the travel year, then we moved here to Portugal. So then we had a whole year of like, hey, we're living in a new country. Let's just, like, get adjusted here, make sure we want to be here. Fast forward to this year and then this summer. And so that kind of gives you, like, the full context of our timeline and why we didn't start earlier.

[00:17:18] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:17:18] Jason: For our friends and family are listening, why it's taken us so long, you know.

[00:17:22] Caroline: And I will say, like, we could probably do an entire episode just on, like, waiting to have kids. Like, I think there are a lot of challenges and also benefits of that. And it's just a unique experience watching all of your kids around you. If you are...

[00:17:37] Jason: Friends.

[00:17:38] Caroline: I say this as someone, if you have decided that you are not going to be child free by choice, obviously that's a different journey. But if you do know that you want kids but you are choosing to wait, that is interesting in, you know.

[00:17:52] Jason: Very different from a lot of...

[00:17:53] Caroline: And I was always really, like, confident in our timeline. Like, once the initial where all of my close friends started having kids, like, I will say in the beginning of that, you do have this little bit of, like, oh, like, am I different? Am I on the outside or whatever? But then you sort of... then they're on their second and they're on their, some of them, their third. And I just felt very comfortable and, like, that had, that moment had already passed, right, where it was like, oh, I'm not going to be in this group of my peers doing the same thing as they are. And that's okay. And they've all still made me feel very included in their group, even though they're all moms and I'm not. Right. Um. There are some moments where that's hard. Just, it is what it is. But in general, you know, I've got... I've kind of, like, made peace with our timeline of that.

[00:18:32] Jason: Can't really change it anyway.

[00:18:33] Caroline: You can't change it anyway.

[00:18:34] Jason: Yeah.

[00:18:35] Caroline: Um, and I... and I, like I said, and I have felt very confident of all the reasons. So then when we decide it's going to be this year, um, I also, in my mind, you know, I had always kind of, like, I'll just say, I don't have this in my notes. We do have notes to go off of because there's a lot here. But, like, one thing that I had prepared myself for the idea that it might take a few months to get pregnant, because obviously, like, you hear people's, everyone's journey is different. Right. I will be honest and say that something that I had not prepared myself for was what happened to us?

[00:19:09] Jason: You were more thinking we were going to try and, like, oh, not pregnant.

[00:19:12] Caroline: Exactly. I was like, okay, maybe. And, you know, they say. I think they especially, like, we're a little older. Both of us are a little older.

[00:19:19] Jason: Speak for yourself.

[00:19:20] Caroline: It can take longer the older you are. And I had thought, okay, maybe the getting pregnant will be the hard part. I just hadn't... I hadn't, like..

[00:19:31] Jason: You didn't have this on your bingo card.

[00:19:33] Caroline: I didn't have this on my bingo card. And so what happened was the first month that we tried, which is a weird. Not enough people talk about that first month where you go from, especially when you're an older, older person. Especially when you've waited so long to try to have kids, you are like, a full, established adult person who is not having children. And then that first month where you start trying, and you're like, oh, like, I think most people, if they don't get pregnant right away, they have a couple of months to go from, we don't have kids, to, like, we're trying to have kids. We got pregnant the first month.

[00:20:06] Jason: Yeah.

[00:20:06] Caroline: And so that, in and of itself, was a very shocking and disorienting, surreal experience of going from, we are people who are not even trying to do that.

[00:20:18] Jason: I tried to explain this to you very early on in our relationship that I felt we were very genetically compatible. And I was just like...

[00:20:24] Caroline: Yeah, but you had no basis for that.

[00:20:26] Jason: Does it matter? I... I can have my own science podcast if I wanted these days.

[00:20:30] Caroline: That's right. You are a middle aged white male. You actually should. It's mandated that you should.

[00:20:34] Jason: I live near a medical center, so therefore I know things.

[00:20:40] Caroline: Okay, well, your confidence was not quite enough for me. I still was like, this could take a while. Okay. It didn't. So then that was disorienting. And, but then I was like, I was so excited, right? Because I was like, well, fantastic.

[00:20:53] Jason: Yeah.

[00:20:53] Caroline: And we, being the planners that we are, we had had this whole timeframe that really worked out well because we were like, okay, we can go back and see our families. And by that point, like, with that pregnancy timeline, I would have been, I think, right in the second trimester, we were like, oh, this works out perfect. We'll go back. We'll see family. Like, we'll feel comfortable flying. Like, it'll... we'll, we'll come back and then...

[00:21:17] Jason: Have to cut back on your mimosas and champagne, obviously.

[00:21:19] Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mimosas and champagne on the plane were gonna take a huge hit.

[00:21:23] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:23] Caroline: But...

[00:21:24] Jason: To just four.

[00:21:25] Caroline: To just four.

[00:21:26] Jason: Just kidding. Again, levity.

[00:21:28] Caroline: And so anyway, well, that experience was very unique because I'm taking the test. I was... I was testing every day. This was... this was at the very end of May.

[00:21:41] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:42] Caroline: And so I'm taking tests every day. The...

[00:21:45] Jason: And these are not just... because I'm dumb. These are not, like, pee on the pregnancy test type of test, where, like, it looks like a thermometer. Like, I see a thing and it looks like a thermometer. This is like little strips. You have, like, little strips.

[00:21:59] Caroline: What Jason...

[00:22:00] Jason: I only know those from water testing a pool. So I'm just... I mean, I'm out here being like...

[00:22:04] Caroline: Hey, how much chlorine you got? What's your pH?

[00:22:07] Jason: Yeah. Do we need to add a little bit of chlorine to your body?

[00:22:09] Caroline: Yes. For any Jason's out there.

[00:22:10] Jason: Yeah.

[00:22:11] Caroline: You have, like, what you think of when you think of pregnancy tests is, like, the plastic thing. It's what you see in movies. Yeah.

[00:22:16] Jason: Aren't those... isn't that where you get all your...?

[00:22:18] Caroline: Exactly, exactly. Then they have the kind of cheaper ones that are just the HCG. They're little strips, and they're testing your HCG hormone. And so... and so how that works is the more of that hormone, which is like the pregnancy hormone, the more of that that you have in your system, the darker the line will be. Right. And so it's supposed to get darker. And so, you know, and some people are like, oh, don't test too early, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, like, I was feeling so weird.

[00:22:46] Jason: Yeah.

[00:22:47] Caroline: And I've never been pregnant before, and I was feeling so weird.

[00:22:49] Jason: Anybody who's listening to this podcast for a while will know that Caroline is extremely in tune with her feelings and her body.

[00:22:55] Caroline: Very body aware.

[00:22:56] Jason: It's not like one of those where you wake up and you're like, I feel a little weird. And I just go, you're fine. It's like, okay, well, you know, your body.

[00:23:05] Caroline: I know every little weird thing, and it's a gift and a curse. But immediately, I was, like, weird. And the weirdness was getting, like, it was very, a very particular kind of nausea. That I can't...

[00:23:18] Jason: That you don't get.

[00:23:19] Caroline: Yeah, that I don't get any other. I can't describe. And, you know, extreme fatigue. And my body was so hot.

[00:23:25] Jason: Yeah, there was...

[00:23:26] Caroline: I was, like, pumping out heat.

[00:23:27] Jason: There was a day by, like, 04:00 p.m..

[00:23:29] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:23:30] Jason: You were basically ready for bed.

[00:23:31] Caroline: I was like, I gotta go to bed.

[00:23:31] Jason: You were like, I've never felt so tired in my entire life.

[00:23:34] Caroline: And people talk about that. They talk about the fatigue. And I was like, what are they? What do they mean?

[00:23:38] Jason: That was the clear signal for me, because obviously, I can't feel the nausea inside your body. But as the person who's sitting...

[00:23:43] Caroline: Yeah, it's more of like a...

[00:23:45] Jason: I, literally, I remember looking at my clock being like, bro, it's 04:00 p.m. I have never seen you so tired at 04:00 p.m. Clearly something is different.

[00:23:53] Caroline: Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:53] Jason: It was very apparent.

[00:23:54] Caroline: Yeah. So there was, like, there was, like, a whole handful of a lot of those things. And so it had gotten to the point where I was like, oh, if I take a test, like, I would be so surprised if I wasn't pregnant 'cause I felt so weird. So then I remember I took a test on a Sunday. It was positive, faint positive, but it was, like, definitely positive. And you and I were both like...

[00:24:14] Jason: There is...

[00:24:15] Caroline: Oops. Okay, like, not oops, because we were trying, but, like, we were just, like, didn't see that coming. And so then it was very surreal. So then, like I said, it's a couple of days of, like, kind of getting our heads wrapped around it, getting excited. So then by a couple of days, I'm getting excited. You're planning, you're doing timelines, you're doing whatever.

[00:24:32] Jason: I'm building the crib.

[00:24:34] Caroline: And the line's getting darker, and so I'm excited. And then I'll never forget my friend. My friend Leah. I swear she has some sort of, like, supernatural power. Whenever I'm, like, something big is happening in my life, like, we probably go, like, a month at a time between, like, phone calls. Whenever something big is happening in my life, she's calling. So I had just taken a test. And it was, you know, the getting darker, getting darker. And she called, and I was like, I was waiting to call her to tell her until it was, like, very clearly dark. And I was like, oh, my gosh, Leah, like, here's what's going on. And, like, I was like, I don't. I'm afraid to say that it's a yes yet because it's so faint. But, like, I'm just gonna stop testing, and then on Friday, I'm gonna... I'll call you. And, like. And she's like, okay. She's like, go get a regular. Don't do the pool test. Go get a real test and do it first thing in the morning and, like, call me and whatever. And, yeah, I was like, did everything in my discipline to, like, not take tests for a few days. And then Friday morning, I woke up. I woke up like a kid on Christmas morning. I was like, so...

[00:25:41] Jason: Just so everyone's aware, the podcast didn't just stop. We just were having an emotional moment, which is okay.

[00:25:47] Caroline: Yeah. I think I just. I can remember that feeling, like, waking up, like, on Christmas morning, you know? And I was so excited because I was just like, I know. I was just like, I know I'm pregnant. Like, now it's just a formality. I just need to take the test and call Leah. And I took the... well, it was in Portuguese.

[00:26:10] Jason: Yeah, well, that was a whole other journey, was you had to figure out, like, okay, how...?

[00:26:14] Caroline: Yeah, exactly. So I took, like, a test, and it said no, and I was so confused. It's like, what? And then I took my pool test, and it was lighter. It was lighter than three days before. It was there. It was still faint, but it was lighter than three days before. And I was like, oh, crap. Like, I think... I think this is what's happening. I think it's a chemical pregnancy, which, again, I hate that word. But it's just this idea that, like, you had a pregnant... It's not, it's not that it was not there because, when I hear chemical pregnancy, I told you, it makes me feel like it's like a false positive. Like, like the chemical is telling you that it's there, but it's not. It is there. Like, you had a fertilized embryo. It implanted, but it just, for whatever reason, didn't stick. And so... so now your hormone levels are going down, and so now you're... the test is getting lighter. And so then it was just, like, in it... it felt like just in an instant, like, all this excitement that I had built up. And I know it was just a week. And that's what's the hardest thing is, like, the whiplash of, it was just a week. I only had basically one week where I had a positive pregnancy test, and so... And then it was gone. And that is one of the hardest things I think about the early, early types of miscarriage is, like, it really plays in your mind because you go, like, you really do start to do this thing where you're just like, well, was it even real? Like, was it even real?

[00:27:39] Jason: Obviously, you hear so many stories of people having miscarriages way later.

[00:27:44] Caroline: Which is awful and horrific, and I can't even imagine. And, like, that's its own brand of nightmare that I have had very close friends go through, and they've told me the intimate details of that, and it sounds absolutely horrific. And so I think that also plays in your mind.

[00:27:58] Jason: Because you're like, I don't want to talk about this because it doesn't compare.

[00:28:02] Caroline: It doesn't compare. And you do the compare thing, which we all know that, like, pain is not to be compared in that way, but you do do this thing where you just go, like, your brain goes, oh, well, I'm in a different category. Right. But for me personally, like, that was the hardest part about that first one was, like, the way that it made me almost, like, gaslight myself, the way that it made me gaslight myself into being like, well, it's not that bad. You shouldn't be that sad. You didn't even have time to really feel pregnant, and yet you're going through this whole emotional experience, even if it's, like, so briefly, and you're riding this huge wave of excitement and hope and, like, planning and your whole future, not your whole future, but, like, your future.

[00:28:48] Jason: It's your whole future.

[00:28:49] Caroline: It's being painted before you, and then it just gets taken away in a, in a second. And, you know, calling Leah and telling her, like, she was so excited and we, you know, and, like, you... We were so excited, and then you were doing such a good job of just trying to, like...

[00:29:07] Jason: Be supportive.

[00:29:08] Caroline: Don't breathe. What do I do? But I will say, like, that first one, the dominant feeling of that first experience was just emotional whiplash. It wasn't even that I was so sad. It was just sort of, like, very discombobulating. It was very confusing. I texted a few close friends to let them know what had happened because I didn't want to sit with it by myself. And I'm so glad I did that. If there's one piece of advice, if anyone's listening to this and you've just gone through this, please tell someone in your close circle. And because it is real and it is happening and it did happen to us, and you don't have to sit with that alone and by yourself. And even if it's that you don't know exactly what your feelings are yet, being able to share that confusion with someone, I think, was really helpful. But overall, we were okay. We were like, this sucks. And... but, like, I think we kind of navigated that first situation okay. And then, of course, you know, it was the first month, so...

[00:30:16] Jason: Yeah, like, you... you wrote down the notes here just because, again, I'm an idiot and I don't know anything about these things, but there might be some people like me who listen to this, that you think you were about four and a half weeks pregnant.

[00:30:26] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:30:27] Jason: So I'm only saying that because someone might be listening, be like, oh, you're only one week pregnant. It's like, no, that's not actually, like, how the math maths.

[00:30:34] Caroline: Right. It counts from the first day of your last period. So it's like, if you're doing that. Not that it even really matters, but yeah.

[00:30:41] Jason: No, no, I'm more just sharing it because, again, this is, like, educational for me.

[00:30:45] Caroline: Totally.

[00:30:45] Jason: You know, and... and I think, like, there are so few spaces. I don't know. I'm speaking on my own behalf of, like, it's not really easy to find helpful content that explains some of these simple things that doesn't make you feel like, well, you should know this, you know? What? Why should I know this?

[00:31:03] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:31:03] Jason: I have no idea. You know, like, there's just... there's so much out there that you can get confused by. So, anyway, I'm just sharing a couple of these small, little things.

[00:31:11] Caroline: I'm really glad you did that. Especially because I would like for this to be... especially because we have both of our perspectives and I would like for this episode to be something where, yes, probably if you... you know, I would like for it to... it's my experience, but it's just as much your experience. And so I would like for this to be something where if you are the partner of someone who is pregnant then you can...

[00:31:34] Jason: If you're getting forced into listen to this podcast.

[00:31:37] Caroline: Stop.

[00:31:37] Jason: You get some... some other little anecdotes and tidbits.

[00:31:40] Caroline: So then we just decided, because, you know, by that point, I felt, okay. And we just thought, okay, well, we'll just try again next month. Like, there wasn't any huge, major reason to wait.

[00:31:54] Jason: Have any alarms.

[00:31:54] Caroline: Or to have any alarms. And a lot of things that you'll look at are, like, I think... I think I read some statistic that was, like, one in four pregnancies, even maybe at my age, like, ends in miscarriage anyway, you know? So it's like, it is a very prevalent thing. I had a close friend who, her first pregnancy was a chemical pregnancy, and then she has since gone on to have three children and no additional miscarriages. And so I was like, she was my beacon of light. I was just like, oh, it's going to be just like so and so. And, you know, don't freak out. And also, as someone who deals with, like, an anxiety disorder, you're going to notice a pattern of, like, there's a lot of mental coaching that goes on to just not spiraling.

[00:32:38] Jason: Yeah, I think it is fair just to acknowledge, like, there were a lot of spirals in the first month, and that's not a criticism of you. That's gonna make you feel bad. That's just to normalize anybody who might be listening to this that, if you are also that type of person, that is something you are going to experience.

[00:32:54] Caroline: Absolutely. And I think it... it's something that can so quickly take over your thoughts. It take, like, this is something I didn't expect was just how much even just trying to conceive before we were even pregnant, like, how much brain space it then takes over because it's this big thing that's happening in your life. I mean, it's defining, potentially the rest of your life.

[00:33:16] Jason: Yeah.

[00:33:17] Caroline: It takes up a lot of brain space. You're like, when am I ovulating? When are we...?

[00:33:19] Jason: What music do I want to listen to when we're trying? What's that? What were you saying?

[00:33:23] Caroline: Don't give them that playlist. Yeah, you got to...

[00:33:28] Jason: It's just Korn. Yeah. Not the food, the band.

[00:33:32] Caroline: The band. Yeah, we're real into some weird stuff. I'm kidding.

[00:33:37] Jason: Again.

[00:33:37] Caroline: Where am I?

[00:33:38] Jason: Levity.

[00:33:39] Caroline: So, okay. So then the next month, we're like, okay, this is also something that's very interesting, is like, you're devastated. Like, when something like that happens, you're devastated. But then a few days goes by, and then you're like, okay, well, it's another cycle. So, like, here we go again, and then you can have hope again.

[00:33:54] Jason: Yeah, you talked about, too. Like, this is also the roller coaster that is the female hormone cycle, where, like, then you would get into, like, your...

[00:34:02] Caroline: Yeah, the upswing.

[00:34:03] Jason: Hormones.

[00:34:03] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:34:04] Jason: Whatever it is, where you're like, everything is happy and good news for you.

[00:34:07] Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like a uniquely cruel thing that, like, the very moment where you, like, let's say you have an early loss, like a chemical pregnancy, that's the same moment that your hormones are totally crashing.

[00:34:20] Jason: Right.

[00:34:20] Caroline: So it's like you're experiencing the worst part of it at the moment where your hormones are the least helpful in helping you cope with that. And so you do have this very low low, I think, for a few days, and then, at least for me personally, then I could feel kind of myself become replenished again. And that... those better feelings, you know, you kind of have... I forget which hormone, but, you know, you're on the upswing. And then you're ovulating again, and then you're trying again. Right. And so the second month that we were trying was very weird because, again, I'm in my head, I'm coaching myself. I'm like, don't expect that you're going to get pregnant again right away. Like, I mean, I was, like, trying to that second month, I was like, I really need to settle in for the long haul here. Like, I need to just be okay with, this is going to take a while, and this is the journey and whatever. But then, unfortunately, what happened that second month is I felt really weird again, not the nausea. Not the very particular nausea that I now know is a telltale Carol's pregnant sign. But I had this, like, terrible cramping that I... I mean, not terrible, not, like, go to the hospital, but, like, daily, like, period cramps. Different, though, kind of, like. And on the daily for, like, this whole week after we... after my, like, ovulation window. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, maybe this is good. A good thing that my symptoms are different because last time it ended badly. So this... maybe this is, like, a different brand of, like, better pregnant.

[00:35:43] Jason: Yeah.

[00:35:44] Caroline: These are the things I'm, like, telling myself. Right. And I'm like, don't get your hopes up. But anyone who is trying to conceive knows don't get your hopes up is, like, impossible.

[00:35:52] Jason: Yeah.

[00:35:53] Caroline: And so... so then I do. I get my hopes up and, you know, the... every day is going by towards the end of when I'm supposed to get my period, and...

[00:36:03] Jason: You're going through the pool strips.

[00:36:04] Caroline: And I'm going through those pool strips, and it's just nothing, nothing, nothing. And so I had pretty much made peace with that the second time it didn't work, but it just sucked because I had kind of been like, well, maybe, you know, and there's still, even when you get a negative, there's this still part of you that's like, maybe it's too early, you know? Well, then, fine. I got my period. We didn't get pregnant that second month. Totally fine. So that one. That one was strange, though, because I do feel like I had this delayed emotional reaction to the first one. So the first month and the first miscarriage, like I said, the overall theme emotionally felt just, like, disorienting. And so I didn't really know how I felt. And I think this second month, where I did have this very clear hope, hopefulness, and disappointment, it's like it was an open window for all of the feelings from the first month to hit me, because now we're in the thick of it, and now I am having to settle in for the long haul, and I don't have control over how this is going. And I'm physically uncomfortable that that I think my hormones were trying to normalize after the miscarriage from that first month. And, boy, those couple of days, that period was just really bad. Really bad. And so you're feeling physically uncomfortable, and you're feeling emotionally uncomfortable. But one thing that really helped me that second cycle is I was for sure gonna say... no. Well, we'll talk, but we will. We will talk about that, because you have been wonderful in an era of our lives where we just both are navigating the total and complete unknown. But I think that you've done a fantastic job. So if I haven't said that enough.

[00:37:48] Jason: That's... thank you.

[00:37:51] Caroline: Aside from that, you know what else has been helpful?

[00:37:53] Jason: Yeah.

[00:37:53] Caroline: What was really helpful was I decided at that moment to tell my, like, next in, like, my inner circle of girlfriends, beyond those, like, a couple of close friends. I told my good group of girlfriends, and I said, here's what's been going on, and here's how it's feeling. And I don't know why that felt hard. I think because, first of all, I did it in a group chat. And anybody knows, like, to torpedo the group chat with, like, heavy news is just, like, the worst feeling in the world. You're just like, hey, everybody, like, passing memes back and forth, like, by the way, yeah, this was the worst. But I'm so glad I did that, because it felt so just, like, a relief to be able to let people who care about me in on what was happening with me. And we're at this age where, like, everyone has their own lives going on, and I have no expectation that anyone is not busy. You know what I mean? Like, everyone's busy, but to have, like, a moment where your friends can kind of, like, gather around you and be like, I am so sorry. Like, this is a lot, you know, was really helpful. And... and going back to what I was saying about that first month, making, like, the overall feeling of being, like, is this even real? Should I even be sad? Like, which, of course, there's my better, more wise part of me is, like, there's no should be sad. Like, if you're sad, you're sad, you know? But there is that part of you that just goes, like, what level, what... what level of emotion is appropriate? And for your friends to come and validate those feelings and say that whatever you're feeling is okay and you don't have to be the one to coach yourself up on that every day is really helpful.

[00:39:28] Jason: Yeah.

[00:39:29] Caroline: And so that was nice.

[00:39:31] Jason: Yeah.

[00:39:31] Caroline: And... and then... and then we moved on. And then we thought, let's just...

[00:39:40] Jason: Try. Try again.

[00:39:42] Caroline: Try again.

[00:39:42] Jason: I was gonna try harder this time.

[00:39:44] Caroline: Okay. Do you want to...?

[00:39:46] Jason: No.

[00:39:46] Caroline: Okay. We're just gonna leave that?

[00:39:48] Jason: Yeah.

[00:39:48] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:39:49] Jason: I just wanted everyone to know, though.

[00:39:50] Caroline: You want to give your best effort.

[00:39:51] Jason: That I was gonna... I was... it was gonna be, like, a full...

[00:39:55] Caroline: Hey.

[00:39:56] Jason: Strong effort, and I was going to bring it. Okay.

[00:40:02] Caroline: Thank you.

[00:40:02] Jason: Yeah.

[00:40:02] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:40:03] Jason: Just want everybody know that I was going to do my best. Yeah.

[00:40:07] Caroline: Yeah. How do you cope with emotional conversations? A lot of dick jokes, mainly. Um, okay, so then now we are talk... We are getting into July. And July we try again, and about a week after we try again, the familiar nausea comes back.

[00:40:27] Jason: Did I do a good job?

[00:40:28] Caroline: You did a great job.

[00:40:29] Jason: Thank you so much.

[00:40:29] Caroline: And the day that I woke up and I felt that particular brand of I want to vomit, I was like... it was so weird because I was, like, so excited.

[00:40:40] Jason: To be nauseous.

[00:40:40] Caroline: To be feeling absolutely terrible.

[00:40:43] Jason: Yeah.

[00:40:43] Caroline: It was such a weird mind game because every day that I would wake up and feel terrible, I felt wonderful. And it was just weird because I was, like, physically, I feel terrible. Emotionally, I feel wonderful. And so that was a very interesting mental experience, because for me personally, I know everyone's different of how they are going to navigate this situation, but for me, I was really trying not to guard my heart in a way, because I thought to myself, if this is it, I don't want to look back and feel like I didn't let myself experience the joy of being pregnant. I didn't want to be like, well, you know, like, I'm not gonna... I'm just gonna hold my breath until, like, I really wanted to feel it and feel excited about it and not... not go down that road of, like, what if this ends badly? Because I just thought... I wanna be able to look back and say that that was not fearful, but joyful. And truthfully, I'm not, like, I'm glad I did that because I... something I've learned in my anxiety recovery kind of experience is, like, no amount of pre, like, dress rehearsing grief is going to protect you from the grief that happens anyway. It doesn't work like that. And so I've learned that. And so I just thought, I want to live in the joy of this moment, and whatever happens, happens. And I kept telling my close friends, like, my mantra was, like, joyful until proven otherwise. And I think that's just how I'm going to continue to live this journey is just joyful until proven otherwise because it doesn't change the grief. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't make it easier, I don't think. And so, yeah, that was really exciting is when I knew. The hard part was that I knew, because now I know the familiar feelings. I knew before I could even test, like, really, it was like, I knew. And then I had to still wait a few days till it... till there was enough, like, HCG, I guess, to be able to show up on a... on a pool strip. And do you remember the day where, like, I got the pool strip and it was like... it was the first day where you could see the line, and I'm over here holding it up to Jason. I'm like, you see it, right? You see it, right? And he's like... It was so faint, but, like, by the time that I finally showed you the one, you could definitely see it. And you were like, oh, my gosh, it's there. And so then I'm excited. And then days are going by again, and then freaking... I don't know what it is about Sundays, but... well, I guess the Friday was the bad day before, but it was Sunday. I remember I woke up and I felt different. Like, I didn't feel as nauseous. And again, I don't know how much of this is real, but all I know is, like, I felt like something was less, if that makes sense. And then do you remember? You were... you were... you went to walk the hill, so you were out for of the house and it was just me. And I was like, man, I feel weird. And I was like, writing in my journal, doing my... having my coffee, doing my normal morning thing, and I... but I hadn't. I didn't have any, like, doubts at the time. I was just so excited. I was just like, oh, my God. How lucky are we? Like, how lucky are we that we got pregnant again? I felt so freaking lucky. And then I'm finishing up my coffee, and I go to the bathroom and wasn't even prepared for it. I'm spotting all of a sudden, and I was, like, my heart just, like, sank.

[00:44:13] Jason: Yeah.

[00:44:15] Caroline: But again, I'm coaching myself through it, so I'm like, don't freak out.

[00:44:17] Jason: Sometimes that happens, right?

[00:44:19] Caroline: Yes, exactly. And sometimes...

[00:44:20] Jason: For the dummies who like me...

[00:44:21] Caroline: Sometimes that... that can be totally normal. And I was like, this, this is not... This is okay. And so I was like, don't freak out. Don't freak out. And I had to kind of, like, emotionally prepare Jason for what he was coming home to, like, just so you know, preparing yourself for some chats when you get home. And even before you got home...

[00:44:44] Jason: It got, like...

[00:44:44] Caroline: It got worse.

[00:44:45] Jason: Yeah.

[00:44:45] Caroline: And I just was like, okay, this is not normal. And so we have a nurse who we can call when things like this happen through, like, a medical service here. And so I called her, and she or her colleague actually was like, yeah, you should probably go to the ER so that they can make sure, you know, I think they want to make sure it's not, like, an ectopic pregnancy or something worse that's happening or something. So then I'm like, okay, so not only is this now happening, but I have to go to the ER.

[00:45:15] Jason: Yeah.

[00:45:15] Caroline: Which just always feels so...

[00:45:17] Jason: Scary.

[00:45:18] Caroline: Scary. And just, like, it makes it just all feel horrible. I will say, on the positive side, the ER here.

[00:45:25] Jason: Yeah.

[00:45:26] Caroline: Was lovely.

[00:45:26] Jason: It's a very...

[00:45:27] Caroline: It was a great experience.

[00:45:28] Jason: We have a great hospital that's near us that we have been to. We pretty much go to for all of our different things that we get done, like my MRIs and you got blood work done and, like, all that. And, yeah, I mean, we show up, we get a little, like, ticket. It's like five minutes that we wait. We go and talk to a doctor and a nurse, and then she said, oh, you know, there's... There are... OB Gyn isn't working on the weekend.

[00:45:51] Caroline: Because it was the weekend. Yeah. And she was like, I can set up an appointment for you right now in Lisbon, which is an hour drive and the last...

[00:45:59] Jason: But then we started asking her, like...

[00:46:00] Caroline: Is there any, like, health risk or something? And she was like, she was honestly just like, no. Like, there's nothing we can do. Like, this is probably what's happening.

[00:46:08] Jason: Yeah.

[00:46:09] Caroline: There's a chance it's not. You know, there's a chance it's... but, like, this is probably what's happening, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

[00:46:14] Jason: You're having a miscarriage.

[00:46:15] Caroline: Exactly. And she was like, you still definitely should follow up with an ultrasound to make sure that, like, basically, you pass all the tissue and all of that. But it, you know, we can do... we can set you up with that here. And I just was like, I don't want to drive to Lisbon for an hour right now feeling like this. So we just made the decision to stay at home. And, you know, we sat at home and, like, it just became very obvious that that's what was happening. And physically, that was the worst. That 24 hours was, like, the worst. And anybody who has been through, and I'm sure it's even more horrific. Obviously, the later your pregnancy is, like, this was, again, almost, almost... I think it was like, maybe I got a couple more days under my belt, but almost exactly the same. So let's call it five weeks pregnant.

[00:47:06] Jason: Yeah.

[00:47:08] Caroline: I can't imagine what it's like the longer, the further along you are, because even at the beginning, it is shocking.

[00:47:17] Jason: It's kind of the classic thing of going through something that you hear other people go through but that you've never been through yourself. It gives you a whole other empathy for any stage of that that's completely further along, more difficult, et cetera. And it just kind of. It puts you in the group. Right. Like, you're now in the group, and there's different levels to the severity of how difficult things are, but you now have an understanding that's different than other people.

[00:47:43] Caroline: Completely. I was like I told a close friend of mine who miscarried many years ago before I even had any frame of reference. And I was like, I wish I could get into a time machine and go back and come over to your house and, like...

[00:47:59] Jason: Support you more.

[00:48:00] Caroline: Lay with you and cry with you and just be with you, because I had no idea.

[00:48:05] Jason: It's until you go through it, you don't really fully understand how difficult it is.

[00:48:08] Caroline: Yeah. And so then, obviously from there, then, that was really hard, because now we're not just talking, like, I can write it off as one. Or, like, maybe it was a chromosome thing or maybe it was a this thing, or it's I'm older, and so it'll be harder. And now two starts feeling like two at the same exact timing starts to feel like something is happening, right? And so something that you don't understand is happening, and that's scary because you're just like, oh, now I can't just chalk it up to kind of luck anymore. Like, now... now I'm in a different category of, like, what is happening here? And so we were just like, well, what do we do? And so, luckily, I was able to get in with my doctor, my OB Gyn. I had already had an appointment scheduled with her for the end of September after the first one, but after this, after the second one, our nurse was like, okay, we're going to call in, and we're going to tell them that if they have any cancellations or anything, open up, that we'll slot you in. And we were so lucky that they just called and were like, we can get you in today. And so we dropped everything, and we went to the hospital where my doctor is, and, wow, I feel so lucky to have her because she made me feel so much better. And also, like, I know a lot of women who, like, sometimes you have to have, like, I think it's three miscarriages is technically what recurrent pregnancy loss is deemed as, like, you have to have three. You have to put... you have to go through this more times in order to, like, actually get certain tests ordered and things like that. And so we got in with her, and she was just so optimistic and so, you know, very comforting, and, like, just was like, let's make a plan. Like, we're gonna figure this out. And asking me so many questions and trying to get to the bottom. And we just, she... I think she very much had kind of, like, a detective mindset about it, which is what we had, where it was like, let's just get to the bottom of this. Like, let's figure it out. And so she ordered a bunch of tests, and she also... I put a note here because I had heard a couple of anecdotes from Americans who had moved to Portugal, women who were like, you know, I found an OB Gyn. But, like, sometimes there's an occasional comment about, like, starting families later in life. I mean, culturally, I think it is probably rarer to, like, wait. My doctor is the opposite of that. She is very... she never makes me feel, like, shamed for being an older mom or a geriatric pregnancy or whatever, anyone over 35. She never makes me feel pressured. She makes me feel like we're gonna figure this out. And, like...

[00:51:11] Jason: Yeah, it's very much a detective. Like, a very supportive detective.

[00:51:15] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:51:15] Jason: Yeah.

[00:51:16] Caroline: And so... and so I do want to also note that part of that is also because we actually did do embryo freezing last year. I didn't mention this, but we, in Portugal, once we moved to Portugal, told you, based on our timeline and everything, and, like, we wanted at least the opportunity to have more kids, and we knew that we were both getting older. Like, Jason's 42, I'm now 36. And part of our decision to have kids was we didn't want to feel pressured. Like, we talked about all of these things, needing to be in line for us to be, like, the best parents that we could be. And so we looked at our options and we decided to freeze embryos. If anyone's interested in that, potentially could do an entire episode just on that experience. But, wow, I've never been more thankful that we did that, because we had no idea even that this would...

[00:52:09] Jason: That we would have trouble conceiving.

[00:52:11] Caroline: Exactly. Or not conceiving, but holding on to a pregnancy. Yeah, but the good news about that is that we have embryos. So that are basically, you know, for all intents and purposes, like, frozen in time at age 34, technically. So, like, the eggs that were used for those embryos are 34 year old eggs. And so that makes me feel confident, because I know that I would feel there would be a whole extra emotional layer on top of this experience if I felt like, oh, my God, the clock is running out. And, like, what if...?

[00:52:42] Jason: Which a lot of people deal with.

[00:52:43] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:52:44] Jason: Scary.

[00:52:45] Caroline: It's very scary. And, like, the fear on top of that, you know, my fear at this moment is one of kind of, like, health and what's happening. And can we get my body to a place where I can hold on to a pregnancy? And, like, that's the fear, but not the fear of, like, this won't ever work. Does that make sense? Or, like, we, you know, we won't be able to have kids. And so I say that humbly, knowing that anything could happen, but at this moment in time, the... the information before us is not to that place of where I should be fearful of that. And so... so, yeah, she was reassuring about that, as she's like, this is great that you did this. And she ordered lots of tests.

[00:53:23] Jason: Yeah. You only had to give eleven.

[00:53:25] Caroline: I gave eleven tubes of blood. As someone who, by the way, had about four and a half years ago, such health anxiety that, like, I would almost get a panic attack going to get blood drawn, me giving eleven tubes of blood in a laboratory by myself without even Jason there, I felt like a freaking superhero.

[00:53:45] Jason: They do it really well in Portugal.

[00:53:47] Caroline: I cannot emphasize this enough. I don't know if it's the needles they use or the way that they're trained, but when I tell you that these are the best blood draws I've ever had in my entire life.

[00:53:56] Jason: Yeah.

[00:53:57] Caroline: Honestly, I just feel so lucky. They're so good at it. Across the board, I thought it was just the first person I had, but, like, I've had, like, four or five now, and I'm just like, you guys are...

[00:54:06] Jason: Very good.

[00:54:06] Caroline: Very good. So right now, in case you're, like, curious, like, I would be because I'm a nosy Nellie and you're like, well, what do we think it is? You know? Cause it is a mystery. But, you know, it could be a couple of things. Number one, it could just be very, very bad luck. Definitely could be. Could be just for whatever reason, those two pregnancies, those two embryos, were not viable. They were potentially chromosomally abnormal or something. And so my body was just like, these are not viable pregnancies. That's a possibility. Um, another possibility is we are investigating this blood clotting disorder issue.

[00:54:44] Jason: That you have.

[00:54:46] Caroline: Potentially.

[00:54:46] Jason: Yeah.

[00:54:47] Caroline: That I have. That, um, you know, there's this particular gene mutation that is hereditary, that my mom has that potentially could be causing an issue. And there are some early indications on my blood work that lean towards that. And so, you know, if you have a disorder where your blood clots more easily than someone else, that would prevent you from... that could cause issues with, like, getting blood to a growing fetus that... that affects the placenta, it can cause preeclampsia, it can cause all these different things and could potentially just cause you not to be able to hold on to a pregnancy. So that is something that we're investigating. Another thing that we're investigating is another gene mutation that causes a B12 deficiency or B vitamin deficiency, namely B12. And so some type of nutritional... which I've had in the past. Yeah, which I have indications of in the past. And so we're working that angle as well, because that can actually cause issues with staying pregnant. So we have lots of angles. We have an appointment with my doctor at the end of September. I will probably do a follow up episode in the future, because as someone who, like, has had medical issues over the past few years, I believe very strongly in being your own health advocate and not to the place where you spiral or the place where you, you know, are WebMd, everything, because that can be scary. But, like, there is some level of self education that you have to do so that you can bring these things to your doctor because you know your body the best. And so I'm putting together pieces that are impossible for one healthcare provider to put together. Right. And to be able to come to the table and say, hey, can we test for this? Or do we think it's this? I'm really passionate about that. And so, perfect example is with my binocular vision dysfunction. Like, that changed my life when I got that diagnosis. And had I not done my own research to investigate that possibility, I would be in a very different place in my life right now. So that's why we shared this level of health information, is because I just... I believe in the transparency with that so that people can be their own health advocates. So we're waiting to find out what that ultimate diagnosis or results or interpretation of my blood tests will be. They also did genetic testing as well, to see if there were any incompatibilities with both of our genes, which can happen as well. And we're waiting to find out results for all of that. And that takes us to today, where we are right now, which is in a limbo stage of life. We are excited about the future. We are processing the summer, which has been an emotional rollercoaster, as you can hear. We are processing. I am processing the idea that pregnancy, for me, is also going to be a health journey of sorts. And I am trying to get myself in the most strong place mentally, to be able to handle that journey, as well as the journey into what being a mother is going to look like for me. And we have just been trying to do it with humor, like we said, and being there for each other and riding the roller coaster together. And one thing I told Jason is, I don't want to look back on 2024 and this year and have this experience color this entire year as a negative experience. I don't want to feel like my life is on pause, even though in many ways it is. I want to find joy and, like, the richness of life, even in the midst of waiting for this new phase of our lives to begin.

[00:58:35] Jason: Yeah. And for anybody who's curious, kind of how the timeline worked out was, in August when we saw the doctor, she basically agreed because we had had plans to travel back to the US for a month. And that's a lot on a body. That is a lot on your anxiety. That is a lot to deal with. Um, that if we were going to try again, which of course we are, to just take a break and wait until we get back.

[00:58:59] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:58:59] Jason: Because getting in the first trimester and then traveling and all that, like, there's just potential risks that are involved and it's just not...

[00:59:07] Caroline: And I think for some of these blood tests, too, like, it helps to have a couple months difference to be able to double check. Like, this blood clotting disorder. Like, you need a bit of time to retest.

[00:59:17] Jason: Especially if we're going to do anything about that, like taking baby aspirin or whatever. We don't know yet. So we haven't had the follow up appointment, but just sharing that like that is why we're going to take a break, you know, and talked about that with the doctor. So when we come back, I can again try harder, and I will do my best and I will...

[00:59:35] Caroline: All star.

[00:59:36] Jason: I will stand up at attention whenever I'm needed.

[00:59:39] Caroline: It's too much.

[00:59:40] Jason: I...

[00:59:41] Caroline: That last part, that was too much.

[00:59:42] Jason: Okay, well, I'm just. I'm erecting thoughts one by one is all I can do here. You know, that's... I'm... I'm just... this is just the tip of what I bring.

[00:59:51] Caroline: I knew you were going to try to think of...

[00:59:52] Jason: To this conversation.

[00:59:53] Caroline: You get two more, and then that's your max.

[00:59:55] Jason: Only two, huh?

[00:59:56] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:59:57] Jason: Just two that hang there waiting for me to just grab onto?

[01:00:01] Caroline: Grab onto?

[01:00:03] Jason: Well, gently, obviously. Yeah. All right. Moving forward.

[01:00:07] Caroline: Too much. It's really... So all of that is the story of how this journey has gone for us. And now, do you want to talk about, like, just how it has affected business stuff?

[01:00:20] Jason: Sure. So I think this... this will probably be, I would guess, another like 20 to 30 minutes of discussion. So we'll just keep this as one long episode because I think this is going to be an episode that goes out, and then we're going to take a break from the podcast for a little while, mostly due to the aforementioned travel, not because we just want to drop this.

[01:00:38] Caroline: And also, just like we, amidst all of this, we did not take a summer break, which is what we normally do, which is maybe the year that we should have taken a summer break more than any other year in our lives. But as we'll discuss, we had this sort of... This year was very different for us because we sort of had this, like, countdown clock happening where we were like, we want to go full tilt since this might be the last time that with we are able to devote all of our time and attention to our business without being parents.

[01:01:10] Jason: Listen, we are not under any...

[01:01:12] Caroline: Illusions?

[01:01:14] Jason: Illusions that we're going to be able to work like, we've been able to work for the past few years when we have kids.

[01:01:18] Caroline: Exactly. In fact, we know that's not going to be the case.

[01:01:21] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. And so to start 2024, kind of the conversation that we kept having was, okay, we think we want to start trying in the summer. We don't know if it's going to happen, but the front half of the year, let's kind of put in a little bit more effort than we normally would.

[01:01:37] Caroline: Which is why when you go back and listen to, like, our beginning episodes this year of, like, we're like, this year, it's gonna be like Teachery all the way, and we're gonna, like. I just remember the, like, zealousness with which I started this year, because I was just like, this is my... this next six months, I was so excited because I was just like, I'm gonna give my all to my current baby, which is our businesses, and then we're gonna pivot into more pulling back and kind of like, entering into the parenting phase.

[01:02:06] Jason: Yeah. So...

[01:02:07] Caroline: That was the goal.

[01:02:07] Jason: It's why the first six months of the year, you probably heard us talking about Caroline was working on Teachery a ton and investing in that. We were working on WAIM, and we were building a new program for WAIM, and then we were working on the content extravaganza, and there's just all this stuff that was happening, moving the WAIM website over to a whole new platform, a lot of things. And the goal was to just try and, like, get a bunch of that stuff done and kind of the wheels going in motion so that we could, if you got pregnant and if you couldn't work very much, we would actually be okay to then have you kind of out of the equation for during the time during the pregnancy when you just might be feeling like crap every day.

[01:02:48] Caroline: Right.

[01:02:49] Jason: And we might get an hour out of you, you know, work wise, when you could work or maybe nothing. And so that was... that was really the point of the beginning or the focus of the beginning of the year. And I think the very difficult part of what happened in May through July was that it was like, an outcome we didn't really think about happening.

[01:03:12] Caroline: Exactly.

[01:03:13] Jason: Which was then, like, okay, we've got all these things in motion, and now, like, all of them kind of have to come to a screeching halt in a different way than we expected.

[01:03:21] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:03:23] Jason: Because I think there'd be a whole different thing if you're like, I'm pregnant. I don't feel good.

[01:03:26] Caroline: Exactly.

[01:03:26] Jason: At least I'm pregnant. And, like, I have something to look forward to in this.

[01:03:29] Caroline: And, like, the thing that I had prepared myself for, like, I, like you're just describing, is, okay, maybe I'm pregnant, and, like, maybe my capacity is a little lower, but I can just spread out our timelines, and then we can wrap up these projects, and then that will work out. What I didn't anticipate, like I said, was this roller coaster and this roller coaster that was, like, for three months, I was in this, like, weird loop where it was, like, for two weeks, I'm excited, and we're trying, and then for the next two weeks, all I can think about is, am I pregnant? And then I'm starting to feel bad. So then that's when that's, like, taking me out of it. Then, oh, I'm not pregnant. Now I'm emotionally recovering from that and physically recovering from that, and then again, I'm back in the loop. And so that happened, like, three months in a row. And so it was just, it was like, the think of, like, context switching, but it was, like, emotional context switching. It's like, at least if it was one thing, I could kind of ride that, but it was the constant switch up of, like, I don't know, from week to week. I just had no idea what I was dealing with and the emotional resources that it required to traverse this, like, very new territory that I had not ever experienced before. And so then we had already decided that we were going to do this new program. The one place we did pull back is, again, if you're wondering why, we had, like, this whole content extravaganza and we were going to start creating content for both businesses. And then that was right when we had the first miscarriage. And it became very clear to me that I had built a schedule for myself where in a vacuum, I could have given my resources to both businesses, but I had built in no extra margin for life's curveballs. And for as much as we give advice for people to do that, I had failed to do that. And I just was like, there's no point in even posting this content, even the content that we had in the bank, only to stop posting four weeks later, because I just knew that it wasn't going to be sustainable. And as the weeks went by, it became very clear to me. I mean, I think it also something like this, you go through it, and it's very clarifying in terms of how you want to spend your time. And it changes you. It makes you think different things. And I just was like, I don't have the capacity to give my all to two businesses. I don't. And that's why in recently, like, if you heard the Teachery episode, like, Jason is more taking on Teachery now. And like, I'm sort of using my expertise, expertise more for WAIM and we're separating them a little bit, which is not how we've operated in the past. And a lot of that decision making has come out of what we've learned from the past four months.

[01:06:18] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's may give a lot of people listening who listen to this podcast every week or our waemers who see us on our weekly update video. That's our behind the scenes video, a lot more context of what our summer was like and what we were talking about and kind of like, why things weren't getting done maybe in a same pace or way that we have before. And it's now that you see, like, oh, we had three months of an emotional roller coaster.

[01:06:46] Caroline: And I hated that. Like, I really did want to let people in on what was happening, but I also, I didn't want to do it too early where, like, I just was not having form, fully formed thoughts about it. Then what I really didn't want was to mix it in amongst, like, the lead up to our launch because I also didn't want something so personal to be used for any type of attention before a launch. Do you know, it just didn't, it felt icky to me, like, to be like...

[01:07:15] Jason: It became this very weird timeline of things and... and, yeah, I mean, I think a big part of this, not taking a break this summer, you know, really showed us how important taking breaks for us twice per year has become and is necessary.

[01:07:32] Caroline: Exactly. And sometimes, like, man, yeah, this year has taught me a lot of things, and I'm sure I'll have many more thoughts about this, like, as the months go on and as we wrap the year up. But in May, I was just thinking about writing a newsletter about this. But I think the irony of my... my theme for the year was learning in motion, and it was all about Teachery, right? It was like giving myself the space to, like, make mistakes and just kind of, like, keep moving forward. And I find things out as I go and experiment and not try to live so much in my head. And the irony is that I feel like that's what I ended up doing with life, is, like, I really had to give it, give Teachery my all to find out that I didn't want to give Teachery my all. I really had to, you know, believe naively that my full capacity was one thing only to find that it was much less than that and to learn that lesson again. And that's okay. I'm glad that I learned all of those things, because I think the best way to learn some of those lessons is just by experimenting and trying. And with this whole miscarriage journey, it has been learning in motion. It has been giving myself the space to ride the roller coaster, to not think that I should know how to handle every emotion that hits me, to not think that we as a couple should know how to handle every emotion that hits us. To do our best, to just kind of be present with whatever comes up and, like, chat about it and. And over communicate as things surface. And that's the best that we can ask for.

[01:09:00] Jason: Yeah, I think to touch on that, you know, maybe it's worth just talking about supporting each other during this and, like, how difficult that is, because where I always come from in this side of our relationship is I can't do anything, you know? And I think that's, like, we... we saw this a ton, and I, and I think it's, you know, a blessing in disguise, I guess, is the easiest way to describe it, of your anxiety journey and how much I had to realize, like, I can't fix this problem, and there's literally nothing I can do to fix it. I can just be supportive, and I can be helpful, and I can try and be empathetic to how you're feeling, and then we just have to figure out how to communicate through that in a way where you can say what you need, and I can try to be supportive, but it is also one of those things where there is a bit of an acknowledgement, too, of, like, I can't do anything.

[01:09:54] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:09:54] Jason: And that's for both sides, right. It's for you to realize, like, oh, I want you to do something, but there's nothing you can do. And it's from my side of wanting to do something, but there...

[01:10:03] Caroline: You can't fix it.

[01:10:04] Jason: I can only make so many lunches.

[01:10:07] Caroline: But...

[01:10:07] Jason: Lovingly.

[01:10:08] Caroline: You do do a good job of that.

[01:10:10] Jason: No, I know, but I'm just saying, like, that doesn't make you feel better.

[01:10:14] Caroline: No, but I think one thing that you do that is so valuable to me and is so that I try my best to acknowledge verbally is, like... And we know this, right, because your love language is acts of service. And so when you show love, you do it through acts of service. And that's not always the way I receive love, but I, now, we've been together long enough that I interpret it as such. So it's like, even if my love language is words of affirmation, I just... I just turn your acts of service into words of affirmation. I just pretend that that's what you're saying with your actions. Because when I'm going through something hard, whether it's because you feel helpless and that makes you crazy or whether you just want to support me and show me love, doesn't really matter what the reason is. Maybe it's a little bit of both. But you do such a good job of, like, taking on the...

[01:11:01] Jason: Life tasks.

[01:11:02] Caroline: The life tasks, the mundaneness of life, the thing you, you take all of that off my plate so that I don't have to think about it, so that I can just sit with whatever I'm thinking, feeling. And that is so appreciated, and it's so valuable.

[01:11:12] Jason: Yeah.

[01:11:13] Caroline: I think...

[01:11:14] Jason: I really like, the thing that I have learned is, A, I do try and be more supportive with words.

[01:11:21] Caroline: Definitely.

[01:11:21] Jason: Which is just very difficult for me. It does not come naturally at all. It's like, literally feels like pulling my own teeth out, which many might know is my dental history is my least favorite thing. Second least favorite to being emotionally supportive. But the other part that I have learned, too, is just, like, leaving space.

[01:11:36] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:11:37] Jason: For you to feel how you're gonna feel. And it's a very confusing thing to do as a person who wants to fix everything, because leaving space is like, well, I should be doing something in that space. And it can be very... I mean, it not can be. It is very uncomfortable, and it... but it's also something where I just try and sit back and realize, like, well, there's nothing really I can do. So I... I'm not going to necessarily feel bad for myself in this situation. I'm just going to ask if there's anything that I can do to help or if there's any support that I can offer that I'm not asking. And, and that's... That's really a question that I come back to all the time now in our relationship is, is there something that you wish I was doing more of in this moment? And I try and say that without any self criticism at all, because we just have gotten really good at understanding. You're very emotional. I'm very unemotional. So I have to ask, because you expect a certain thing just in how you operate in the world, and I don't expect that thing.

[01:12:37] Caroline: Yeah. In the same way that we all, as human beings, tend to expect from others what is comes naturally to us.

[01:12:42] Jason: Yeah.

[01:12:43] Caroline: Because that's all our brains can do is predict behavior based on our frame of understanding. And so if I'm an emotional person, my brain is going to expect, like, if it's so natural to me to pick up on the emotional cues of other people, sometimes I get myself into trouble by expecting that other people are going to pick up on my emotional cues. But this is also what I will say as the person who has to go through the physical part of all of this. I wish that if you're someone listening to this and you know friends that are going through this or you're the partner of someone going through this, like, the one thing that I felt, and this is not from you. This is from, like, the people I told, my circle of support. Sometimes it hurt that, like, I don't want to have to be the one to go reach out for help, to reach out for support. Like, I... and I will, because, you know, I don't expect that other people, exactly what we were just saying. Like, I don't expect that other people know what's going on inside of my head. And I know that some people, like, when someone's going through a hard time, I know I do this for some of my friends. You don't want to bring it up because you're, like, you don't want to make it hard, right? Because you're like, oh, maybe they're having a day where they haven't thought about it and you don't want to be the one to bring it up. And maybe there's some of that, and maybe some people are like that. But for me personally, it was really hard where, like, I had a couple of close friends that really would check in or really would say, but, like, especially in the beginning, like, there was a handful of people I told that just, like, nobody checked in on me. And, like, I, I know that kind of sounds terrible, like, oh, well, like, you should have, but I'm just sharing how, how it honestly felt. It felt like I wanted so desperately to just have someone to listen and someone to talk to, but I didn't want to be the one to say, hey, I'm struggling today.

[01:14:45] Jason: Yeah. And I think the, the point that you're trying to get across that is very helpful for people like me to hear, which is, like, if someone comes to you and tells you this type of thing is to try and go out of your way to reach out to them and follow up more times than you think you do. Because I tend to be the person where I'm like, I followed up, which means I checked the box on that task, which means I can move on to the next task, which means that I'm a good person and I go about the world the right way.

[01:15:09] Caroline: Right.

[01:15:10] Jason: And it's very difficult. And this is something that we dealt with during this time was my mental emotional clock resets every single day.

[01:15:18] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:15:18] Jason: Every day I wake up and it's a whole new journey. I am almost never taking through things that happened the previous day.

[01:15:25] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:15:25] Jason: Even in a day, like, you know, a couple weeks ago when, like, my knee popped and I was in incredible pain that night.

[01:15:31] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:15:31] Jason: The next day I woke up, I didn't even think about the incredible pain that I was in. I was just in a whole new day.

[01:15:36] Caroline: It was a new day.

[01:15:37] Jason: And that's where you're very different because you tend to carry over, and that's not a criticism. That's just how you operate in the world.

[01:15:44] Caroline: I am... You are like a... You are like one of those TV shows that's, like, episodic where it's a... You know, it's a new case every episode. It's like. It's like Law & Order.

[01:15:55] Jason: There is a term for it. It's like it starts and finishes every single episode.

[01:15:58] Caroline: Exactly. I forget what it's called, but, like, yeah, it's one of those. I am a multi season Lost.

[01:16:06] Jason: Yeah.

[01:16:07] Caroline: There are Easter eggs that start in season two that we come back to, maybe some that we never come back to in the case of Lost.

[01:16:13] Jason: Obviously.

[01:16:14] Caroline: Totally. And I think the fact that we have realized that about each other is very helpful because it's like, yeah, I just, as the person going through it, like, I do, I did find myself sometimes wishing and, like, even if you're the friend who really wants to support someone going through something, I think sending the text, that's like, hey, I've just been thinking about you. Like, I'm here if you want to share what's going on, and if you totally don't want to share what's going on, that's cool, too. Just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you.

[01:16:42] Jason: Reply stop to not get messages like this.

[01:16:44] Caroline: And again, I want to be clear. Like, I did have friends who, especially friends who were, like, there when I needed them, which is very important. And friends who did check in on me and, like, a couple of those unprompted, hey, I was thinking about you this morning. Like, those texts like, they meant everything to me because I didn't have to be the one to say, this is confusing, this is hard. This is taking up a lot of brain space and heart space. And I just want someone to come along and be like, wow. Like, to kind of, like, validate and acknowledge, like, you're, like, I'm a different person than I was four months ago. I just am. And that's not to be, like, overdramatic, but it's just like, this thing, this colossal thing that has been on my mind for four months. It has turned me into a new version of myself. And I think that's beautiful. I welcome that change. But, like, you don't want to go through that alone. You want someone to come along and be like, I see that you have been going through something, and I want to give you space to be able to share it with me. And I do think that when you have really done a good job of learning how to do that, and it's like, the many conversations we had was like, you're so good now at being able to hold that space when we're in, like, an emotional thing. But usually I have to be the one to open the door to that emotional space, and then you're there to be like, I'm here with you. Tell me about it. Like, you're so good. Once we're in the emotional room. Does that make sense?

[01:18:18] Jason: Yeah, totally.

[01:18:18] Caroline: But sometimes you don't always want to have to be the person. I don't always want to have to be the person to have to open the door into the emotional room. You want someone else to come along and go, hey, there's this room here. Do you want to step inside with me?

[01:18:29] Jason: And that's a totally fair thing to want. But it's also, if you're not getting that thing you have, it is on you to...

[01:18:34] Caroline: Exactly.

[01:18:35] Jason: To reach out and to ask for it, and...

[01:18:37] Caroline: Totally. Because the opposite of that, exactly. And that's what... what we have learned through this process is, like, it's one thing, like, you said, to want it, but don't just want it. And then if you're not getting it, be resentful of it. Because that's another thing I want to make clear, is, like, when I say a few of my friends, like, that's no shade to my friends, like, I have no expectation that that's what should have happened or that, like, people don't care about me or that people... That is no criticism of anyone else. It's just a fact and an observation that I think sometimes people stay... They keep their distance a little bit when you're going through something tough because they don't want to make it worse.

[01:19:13] Jason: Right, of course. Yeah. And I think that that's a part of going through things that are very difficult to go through, as people just don't know what to do. And that, you know, you. You can become kind of paralyzed in that moment when you get this news from someone to go, okay, well, I responded and said that I'm thinking about them, and, like, now I think I'm just gonna, like, if they don't need me, then I'm, you know, I would be here for them. But it's just... it's a very difficult place to navigate when you're on the outside of it, and that's just with you, you understand that, again, when you go through something like this, you're like, oh, okay. Like, now that we have been through this, you. You now are armed with more information of, well, now, if you have a friend that goes through it, you have so much more you could offer to that friend. And I think that that's the... the very difficult part of this is people do go through this, but they don't talk about it. And then. So you don't know. But then, like I... like I said at the very beginning of this, like, we've now told people who've been like, oh, yeah. Like, we went through that as well. Like, how's it going? How are you feeling? Like, what's the next thing, you know? And then they have all these extra things they can ask as opposed to just being like, I'm sorry you went through that. And then the conversation kind of ends there because they just don't know what to do.

[01:20:18] Caroline: Totally. And I've told you this before, whenever we find ourselves in a conversation where you're like, I don't know what to do more. I don't know what more I can do in those spaces to make you.

[01:20:28] Jason: I don't know how much more I could bake. Like, I've added, I am like, the oven is full.

[01:20:34] Caroline: So much good baking. But you're like, I don't know. I don't know what else to do besides hold space. Like, it's like, level one is like, being able to hold that space instead of help, and you've done. You've mastered level one. Like, you've done so great. But the thing I always come back to with you that we're in this new level of learning, is level two is curiosity, a way that I feel validated in my feelings in those places is all I'm really asking for is for someone to show some curiosity in my experience. That's a way that you can show that you care, is not just by holding space, but being like, tell me about that. How does that make you feel? You know, what has that been like? Or what do you think is the most confusing part of that? Or what does that feel like inside your mind? Or what are the things you... you know what I mean? Like, just asking questions. And you and I have talked about how that just, that doesn't come naturally to you, and that's okay. I don't need it. You know, I don't need you to do it every time. I don't have that expectation of you. But if you are a friend and you're listening to this, I think one of the best ways that you can show that you're willing to go into that emotional room with someone is to ask questions. Because by asking questions, you're showing them that you will stay there with them. You're not just trying to get out of the room as fast as possible. You're saying, I'm in this emotional room with you. I love you so much. I will stay here with you. You don't have to be in this room alone. I'll be here with you. And I'll show you that I'm willing to be here with you by asking you questions, which is telling you I'll stay here longer.

[01:22:08] Jason: And then the opposite's true. If you don't want to have an emotional connection with that friend, don't ask follow up questions.

[01:22:14] Caroline: Exactly.

[01:22:14] Jason: Right. So that's how you get out of the room.

[01:22:16] Caroline: That's how you know you get out of the room.

[01:22:17] Jason: Yeah. But I do think that is helpful. And maybe for anybody listening to this, it gives them a little bit of extra something if someone in their life goes through something similar. Okay. Do you want to wrap up with taking a break and kind of what the next, like, month and a half looks like?

[01:22:32] Caroline: You didn't want to talk about how I cried over the seafood festival.

[01:22:34] Jason: Oh, sure, yeah.

[01:22:36] Caroline: I won't. I won't... I'll spare you the details of that anecdote, but I just thought it was very funny. Like, speaking of the emotional roller coaster of all this, I've actually been, I feel like handling it, like, in terms of my outward emotions, like, pretty even keeled. However, certain times, certain random things will trigger something where I have, like, this inappropriately sized emotional response to something. And so a couple of weekends ago, Jason and I had told friends of ours that we were gonna go to our village festival. We live in a Portuguese village, and they have this, like, end of summer seafood festival. Festival is a very strong word for what this is. It's a community... community gathering where everyone goes into a pavilion and eats seafood and, like...

[01:23:17] Jason: It's a little bit like a carnival without any of the rides. So they have a bunch of little games, and they have, like, little kiosks.

[01:23:23] Caroline: Right?

[01:23:24] Jason: And then there's, like, little, like, food stalls.

[01:23:25] Caroline: Okay.

[01:23:25] Jason: And there's a picture, like, a ton of benches in the middle of all of that.

[01:23:28] Caroline: Yes.

[01:23:29] Jason: Where you sit down and you eat seafood platters. Also, you should know this about your boy and your girl. Don't love seafood.

[01:23:33] Caroline: Don't love seafood.

[01:23:34] Jason: So we weren't in a hurry to go to this.

[01:23:36] Caroline: Because of all the things we talked about in this episode, our poor friends have been inviting us to everything this summer, and we've been saying no, because it's always, timing wise, just been like, we don't... we didn't want to leave the house. Like, we just wanted to freaking be in our feels and, like, sit on the couch. And so finally, we were like, end of summer, we're gonna go to the seafood festival or whatever. Well, I'll spare you the details, but, like, what I thought we were signing up for in my head was one thing. What it ended up being was another thing. Jason and I had a miscommunication where we, like, the plan kind of got changed, and then it was a few hours before we were supposed to go meet people, and Jason was like, oh, just so you know, we're gonna go do this, and then it's gonna be like this. And I was like, it's gonna be like, what? And I had a meltdown.

[01:24:17] Jason: And the difference was... the difference was nominal.

[01:24:18] Caroline: Very small. Yeah, but I, like, I'm talking to him, and I'm telling him, like, like, why didn't you, like, clue me into this change? And, like, he's thinking, this change is very small, but in my mind, I'm, my voice is cracking as I'm saying it. Like, why didn't you tell me? And I am having this out of body experience where I'm like, what is happening right now? Like, this is not the reaction that this situation is warranting. And I, because I'm good at just diving into my bubble caves of emotions, I was like, what is happening right now? And what I got to the root of was, I think, this entire summer and this experience has left me feeling such an immense lack of control. And for two people who have control as a coping mechanism for childhood trauma, things of that nature, it has been very disorienting. And so I was like, oh, I had this moment where this change that had happened. I was like, oh, I think the emotion that it's bringing up in me is like, I didn't choose this. I chose the other thing that I thought that this was going to be. And I chose when and where I was going to go work up the energy and the courage to go out and be in a social environment when all I want to do is just be by myself and navigate my own feelings. But, like, I had worked up all this energy to go do this thing, and it turned out it was this other, different thing. So now I have to, like, reorient in my brain how much energy it's going to require. Plus, I don't like seafood, just to be honest. And so... but I was like, the feeling that it's giving me is I didn't choose this. And the feeling that I have had through all of these twists and turns of this fertility journey thus far is I didn't choose this, and I can't control any part of this. And every month, you know, the three months, and I know that that's not very long in the grand scheme of life to be trying to get pregnant. I know that. But those three months were a lot of curveballs and things that I couldn't control and...

[01:26:17] Jason: What you could control was saying no to the seafood festival.

[01:26:20] Caroline: And what I could control was saying no to the seafood festival. And in that moment, I was just like, no. I was like, we're canceling. I'm not going because I'm, first of all, just having a full meltdown right now. But that is just an example, and I only share that because it's hyper specific. But anyone who is going through this, I think your feelings, you may not know what you're feeling, but I think if you have an emotional reaction to something that feels small on the surface, interrogate that and understand where that might be coming from, because only then when you look at it, can you deal with it and can you go, oh, okay. Of course I would be feeling like that. It's not about the seafood festival. It's about, I have to surrender to however this journey is going to go, and that's really hard. But that's a good lesson to learn before kids come, I will say, and that is what I am focusing my energy on right now, is surrendering to controlling any of this, to just focusing on what I can control, which is myself and my reaction to it, and just hold onto the roller coaster and just stay on it.

[01:27:27] Jason: Yeah. All right. So the little bit of a break that we are going to take from content the next month and a half ish is well timed with a trip going back to the US.

[01:27:39] Caroline: Yes.

[01:27:39] Jason: So we will be traveling pretty much the entire month of October and then the first week of November, which gives us a good time to take a break from the podcast, take a break from our email newsletter. For the most part, we're going to get ahead on a little bit of that and then just kind of like, reset. Like, we're not going to upload any YouTube videos and just kind of like...

[01:28:02] Caroline: Give ourselves the break that we should have given ourselves.

[01:28:04] Jason: Yeah. And like, we kind of pushed through in the summer. Like we, I still uploaded a video to the YouTube channel every week during that time, we were still uploading podcast videos. You know, we were kind of skating around all of this life stuff that was going on. And so I think this is going to be, it's going to be a very busy time because we're traveling to see family. So that's always filled with its whole other list of issues, good and bad. But it'll just be, I think, a good break for us to not feel like we're on at a bunch of different moments and having to show up in a certain type of emotional way where, you know, again, like you said, we don't want to use this content in any...

[01:28:41] Caroline: Promotional way.

[01:28:42] Jason: Promotional way. And like, put it up before launch and then you have more people, you know, listening or whatever. It's like by the time we're uploading this podcast episode, we will not be uploading any more content for six weeks. So it is with zero actual, like, way of thinking about any sort of promotion. So and then we're going to do a vacation. And we haven't had a vacation, you know, I guess during our travel year, that entire year, you could call it a vacation. Although if anybody's traveled full time, doesn't feel like it. But we did take a week during that year, didn't take any vacation last year. We did take some time off and we just enjoyed our life here in Portugal. But this is, we are going to take a proper week, like not work at all, just relax, be at a hotel, kick our feet up and just have a good time kind of resetting so that when we get back, hopefully the news that we get from the doctor here at the end of this month, after we get back, we can get back on the train, if you will.

[01:29:37] Caroline: Stop.

[01:29:38] Jason: And, yeah, so if we... if after we're listening to this, you were listening to this episode, if you send us any messages or anything and we're slower to respond or we don't respond at all, just know that that is, you know, not because we don't want to respond to you, but just because we're taking a little bit of time to just take a break from everything, slow down.

[01:29:57] Caroline: Just breathe, recalibrate and process and integrate all of the things that we've been learning and the changes, what's been shifting in us.

[01:30:10] Jason: Lot.

[01:30:10] Caroline: A lot.

[01:30:11] Jason: Shifting. Yeah.

[01:30:11] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:30:12] Jason: I mean, I, again, I tried to shift in multiple different positions to see what would work the best.

[01:30:18] Caroline: Stop.

[01:30:19] Jason: Okay.

[01:30:20] Caroline: I feel we're coming to the end of the episode.

[01:30:22] Jason: Yes.

[01:30:22] Caroline: But I feel like I didn't, um. I was so focused on expressing my feelings that I feel like I didn't give you space to...

[01:30:29] Jason: Like, 30 seconds to just unload?

[01:30:31] Caroline: To be honest, you want more than that?

[01:30:34] Jason: I actually want less.

[01:30:34] Caroline: I know you do.

[01:30:35] Jason: I have nothing left to share.

[01:30:37] Caroline: Okay, then that's fine, too.

[01:30:38] Jason: No, I think I shared throughout this anything that I felt compelled to share. Again, like, it is very... I feel weird saying that I don't feel a certain way, and it's just because I naturally don't feel a certain way. So it's like, even when we were going through the worst of the summer, it's not happening to me. Like, I know that's a weird thing to say because it's happening to us, but, like, physically, it's not happening to me. And, like, it's just... It's the way that my brain takes care of myself. And, like, a perfect example is I hit my head on a cupboard before we started recording, and I hit right on the corner of the cupboard door.

[01:31:18] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:31:19] Jason: And I have a gash on my forehead. I cannot feel it. It is... There is no pain currently going through my forehead. And it is... it is just the way my brain protects me and all these things. And so I'm not not sharing feelings because I have them and I don't want to share them. Like, if anything, I'm the one who probably pushed to share this episode because I want people to hear a normalized conversation about this. I don't know if anybody's going to make it all the way this far anyway, but, yeah...

[01:31:44] Caroline: I think that in itself is really important.

[01:31:47] Jason: Just acknowledging of...?

[01:31:48] Caroline: Yeah. Because I think there are probably a lot of people out there who are like you and they're, their brains have developed in such a way that it protects them from feeling when things are too high or too low. We both have talked at length about how your childhood specifically, has led your brain to formulate those coping mechanisms. And so I think it's really important to share. If we talk about normalization, we need to normalize, you know, the emotional, sensitive folks just like myself, and that it's okay to feel those feelings. And we also need to normalize that sometimes you are going to go through things in life if you're like you, and you might feel disconnected from what's happening, because that is your brain's way of protecting you. And what happens when those two people decide to get together and spend a lifetime together?

[01:32:44] Jason: It just becomes very confusing and difficult emotional conversations about once every 18 months.

[01:32:50] Caroline: I think that it is very helpful because in a way, you can always be that, like, sturdy force in our relationship. And I think... I think it's recognizing the strength in each person's perspective. So it's like you are always that constant that keeps us steady and sturdy throughout some very disorienting times. And I think my sensibility allows us to make sure that we're not just papering over those things, that we're, like, allowing them to come to the surface when those emotions do arise. And so I think we make a really good team.

[01:33:35] Jason: Yeah, for sure. I think it's a good balance. If we were both un-emotional...

[01:33:39] Caroline: Robots.

[01:33:40] Jason: Yeah, just be robots doing it out there.

[01:33:43] Caroline: And I'm also very excited for the day that we do finally have a child. And we get to see, are they going to be...? Which category are they going to fit into?

[01:33:54] Jason: We'll find out.

[01:33:55] Caroline: Or something totally different.

[01:33:56] Jason: Yeah, it'll probably be 50 50.

[01:33:57] Caroline: Maybe.

[01:33:58] Jason: You would think so. All right, I think that's going to wrap up this episode. And...

[01:34:03] Caroline: Thank you for listening.

[01:34:04] Jason: Hope it was helpful. If you're someone who has gone through something similar to this...

[01:34:09] Caroline: We're here with you.

[01:34:10] Jason: Sending a lot of love and compassion your way.

[01:34:12] Caroline: Sending you a lot of love. Just hold on to that rollercoaster. Put one foot in front of the other.

[01:34:17] Jason: And ask for support.

[01:34:19] Caroline: And ask for support.

[01:34:20] Jason: Yeah.

[01:34:21] Caroline: And just know that there are lots of people out there who are feeling the same things. And I hope you don't feel alone.

[01:34:26] Jason: Alrighty. We will be back in about six weeks. It'll be a long enough time that the next episode that comes up after this will be a whole different tone and feeling. So that won't feel so weird to have, like, an episode the week after this that we would need to post to be like, okay, here we go. So, yeah, we'll be back. And we appreciate you listening as always. And that's it for us this week.

[01:34:50] Caroline: See you next time.

[01:34:51] Jason: Bye.