219 - $1m+ in digital products as an intuitive creator (Michelle Rohr interview)

[00:00:00] Caroline: Welcome to Growing Steady, the show where we help online creators like you build a Calm business, one that's predictable, profitable, and peaceful. We're your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an Un-Boring Business Coaching Program and Teachery, an online course platform for designers. Join us each week as we help you reach your business goals without sacrificing your well-being in the process. Slow and steady is the way we do things around here, baby.

[00:00:29] Jason: All right, cinnamon rollers, that's you. Let's get into the show. Well, hello there. We're bringing you something a little bit different today. Exciting new.

[00:00:40] Caroline: That's right, Jason. We don't normally do interviews around here, but today we have an interview for you with Michelle Rohr from Secret O.W.L Society. Michelle has a digital products business where she sells planners and courses, and other products tailored towards creatives who are really interested in personal development.

[00:00:56] Jason: She has been a part of Wandering Aimfully since 2017, back when it was BuyOurFuture.

[00:00:59] Caroline: Oh.

[00:01:01] Jason: Very exciting. She's been around for that long. And I just love that Michelle is a complete rule breaker.

[00:01:05] Caroline: She really is.

[00:01:05] Jason: She just does things very differently. It really warms my action, taking heart to watch someone also break all these rules. One of my favorite things she did was she deleted a 10,000-person email list.

[00:01:14] Caroline: It's true.

[00:01:15] Jason: She's also a very intuitive creator, so she really follows her flow state. So if that is something that resonates with you, I think you're really going to like the things that she has to say and her story around creating and selling.

[00:01:25] Caroline: And that's what I love about Michelle, is that she, I think, just is a perfect example of someone running a Calm business and allowing her business to evolve as she evolves as a person. And so, if you are looking for a model of someone building a business that is more predictable, more profitable, more peaceful, then I think you'll be really inspired by Michelle's story.

[00:01:43] Jason: And just as a reminder, we do have an enrollment period coming up for WAIM Unlimited. If you want some un-boring coaching from the two of us, August 26th through September 10th. You can learn more in the description of this episode if you're listening to it as a podcast or in the first pinned comment on YouTube. If you're watching it there, check out WAIM Unlimited. See if it's right for you.

[00:02:03] Caroline: Perfect. Let's get into the interview with Michelle.

[00:02:05] Michelle: Hello. Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:07] Caroline: Of course.

[00:02:08] Jason: All right, we're going to begin with one of the heavy hitting questions, which is the background on your entire business where it all got started and every little nook and cranny of the stories you want to tell. Just kidding. We got introduced to each other in 2016, so I was thinking, maybe start it from there, and what has your business evolved like since then?

[00:02:28] Michelle: My business started in 2012, and it was basically a blog where I was sharing my own personal growth journey. And then it evolved into having some graphic design clients and selling planners on Etsy. So I was making a full-time income from planners and clients. And I had been doing some courses for my clients, but then I realized, you know what? Let me make my own course for my own business. And it started to take off, right out of the gate, it had a $10,000 launch in the first month. And I realized a couple of things, and one of them was it can be really expensive selling a course on an online course platform. And I came across you guys. You were selling BuyOurFuture, which is now Wandering Aimfully, and it came with a lifetime pricing deal for everything you've ever made and everything you would ever make. And that included an online course platform called Teachery. And so, I just knew that the price of the program was going to save me so much more money because I had already spent that plus more hosting my course on another platform that was costing me money every month forever. So I switched over, and that was how I just bought into your world. And then it just became a whole opportunity to build friendships with you guys. I signed up for coaching for two years, one-on-one with Jason, and started becoming a course creating machine...

[00:04:11] Caroline: Absolutely.

[00:04:12] Michelle: ...with your platform. But that's what 2017 really looked like for me with you guys.

[00:04:17] Jason: Do you remember, Caroline? It's funny, we don't have this in the notes, but it just popped into my head. It was BuyMyFuture in 2015.

[00:04:24] Caroline: Yup.

[00:04:24] Jason: And it's just me, and then it was BuyOurFuture because we basically had so much stuff that was like over, we had like Venn diagrams and Venn diagrams and Venn diagrams of our audiences and products. So we were doing BuyOurFuture, and we, for some reason, one of the two of us was like, "Let's offer just like five spots of a one-on-one coaching."

[00:04:42] Caroline: Yup.

[00:04:43] Jason: Because I had been doing that organically, but not really planned. And I remember both of us being like, "Maybe we'll sell five, maybe."

[00:04:51] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:04:51] Jason: And do you remember what happened?

[00:04:52] Caroline: Immediately.

[00:04:53] Jason: All five were gone in the first 24 hours.

[00:04:55] Caroline: Which is kind of funny when you think about the evolution of that was like a year or two before we even embraced this idea of being business coaches.

[00:05:03] Jason: Yeah.

[00:05:03] Caroline: So I feel like that was a real validation of that shift in our own business.

[00:05:07] Jason: It was a validation...

[00:05:08] Caroline: So you were there from the beginning.

[00:05:09] Jason: ...that we didn't pay attention to for four years.

[00:05:10] Caroline: Yup, yup, yup. Sometimes it takes a while.

[00:05:13] Jason: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Caroline: But I love what you said about, I am always blown away by just your business intelligence, and I love what you were saying about running the numbers and going, "Okay, this is how much I'm going to pay in a course platform." But as a part of WAIM, since you get Teachery, a lifetime Teachery account, you saw the math there working out. And I think a lot of business owners can learn something from that because it's not often how we think about it. We sort of think of, what's this initial investment? Rather than how is this investment going to pay off for years to come. So I love that you mentioned that. I think that's a takeaway for people. But I'm interested to go back at that point where you said you transitioned from building courses for clients and working for clients to then going, hold on a second, I have this skill set. I want to do this for myself and do courses for myself, which, like you said, did turn you into a course creating machine, which is incredible. The creativity is endless, but take me into that decision, and what was maybe that light bulb moment for you of transitioning from doing courses for clients to yourself?

[00:06:15] Michelle: Well, so much of why I do business is it's a container for personal growth. I see it as this is where I get to evolve and heal and grow and learn more about myself. So really that switch between, okay, I'm making courses for clients to I'm making courses for myself, it was really an act of healing because my pattern of putting myself last, and we all have these patterns that we do that we've just pulled into entrepreneurship out of our childhood, and we're just holding them like a personality trait. It was really a pattern of, I'll do this for you, but I can't do this for me because I'm so far down on the list. And so, that switch of realizing, I need to do this for me because that would be an act of personal growth, that really was the switch, and that's really what made me successful with it. It wasn't just, "Oh, if you want to make money, sell courses." It was, if you want to grow into the next evolution of yourself, you need to use courses as that next container for letting go of what really isn't serving you and being the fuller expression of you.

[00:07:27] Caroline: I love that, Michelle. And I think this is why we have all just always gotten along because we see business in that same way of business can be a tool for living a beautiful life. Business can be a tool for healing and self-growth. Business can be a tool for understanding yourself better, for showing up for yourself better, for healing some of those past stories and limiting beliefs. And I just feel like that perspective is what led us to this Calm business idea that I feel like you are just the embodiment of as well, of just allowing your business to evolve as you personally evolve and not sacrificing your mental health for the sake of growing a business, but actually the reverse, growing a business that supports your mental health, that helps you grow. So I think that's really important.

[00:08:15] Jason: I have a question that's jumping way ahead, but I will forget it if I don't ask, but I need to ask.

[00:08:20] Caroline: Go ahead.

[00:08:21] Jason: As someone who got their start blogging in 2012 and made good money from blogging and that way of building a business, in the 10 plus years since then, what do you think is the biggest shift? What's the biggest thing that's changed in literally just like giving information to people and then having them pay you money for more information, essentially, how do you think that's changed in the 10 plus years?

[00:08:46] Michelle: Well, I don't think I've ever like made money from blogging in the traditional sense, like where people would find ways of monetizing blogging and using ads or things like that. I don't even really know how that works, but I used it to grow a connection with a community, to really use my voice and just share who I am and what I'm doing. And I just was like in the homey era of blogging, the days where you just was writing stories about life versus now where it's expert articles, about these particular things. And remember those days where blogs were just blogs?

[00:09:29] Jason: Oh, yeah, definitely.

[00:09:30] Caroline: Oh, my God. You're talking to the proud owner of Clumsy Crafty Happy, the blog. Okay. So I was living that life for sure.

[00:09:35] Michelle: So I still feel like I'm true to that because now my blogs are basically an extension of my podcast, where I'm even more so just turn on the mic, talk about whatever. I don't have a script, I don't have bullet points, I don't have an agenda for how these ties into anything. I just have something I want to say, and then I turn that podcast into a transcript and I'm like, "Oh, it relates to this product. Let me put some links in there." So the latest podcast I published, I was sharing what was going on in my life lately, and I've been really into the wheel of life framework. And so, I've been just using that as a guide for my personal growth lately, and I've been making little tools for myself. So I just hopped on the podcast and did a quick episode about that. And then I realized I have these different things I made, and I can put them into my store, and I can share them right below that episode. And then after I sent that episode out for people to listen to, they just naturally went and bought those things that were conveniently placed next to the episode that they're listening to. So that's really as simple as it is for me. I'm just making it so easy for people to go from, I'm reading or listening to this piece of content, whether it's the blog or the podcast. And look, Michelle made it so easy for me to take the next step and become a customer or become a repeat customer. And I just do that all the time, everywhere. That's just basically how I'm always making money, is I'm always just showing people the next step. I'm sure I could make more money and be more savvy with it, but I think it has served me really well to just keep it simple and make it just make sense.

[00:11:26] Jason: Yeah.

[00:11:26] Caroline: Yes, 100%. And we talk about that all the time, just keeping it simple and really creating from a place of authentic joy. And then, of course, yes, over the years, you pick up strategies, you pick up smart things that you can do, like you said, to facilitate the buying process for your customer. But it all stems from this very authentic place of, I'm enjoying this. I'm passionate about this. This is who I am. And sharing that, like you said, through your podcast, through your blog, and people want to buy from people that they feel like they actually authentically connect with. I know authenticity is an overused word in marketing now, and it's because people use it as a tactic, not as just what it's supposed to be, which is back in those blogger days, we were all just people sharing and expressing ourselves on the internet to find more people that kind of got us. And so, yeah, we very much come from the same perspective of keeping it simple, sharing authentically. And the right people are going to find you.

[00:12:18] Michelle: Yeah. And I think that's why I've been able to get so far without being Uber focused on what is the tactic? What is the strategy? What is the game plan here? Because authenticity always is the magic sauce, and I'm just always sharing from that place. And it's not a tactic, it's just, first and foremost, my business is a place for me to be more myself. So I'm not really sacrificing myself in order to achieve this exterior thing. I'm just focusing on myself. And that always gives my work the sense of, I think, integrity, where people are like, "She's actually doing what she's talking about, she's actually practicing what she's preaching." And I want some of that. And that turns into just customers because I think that people don't really just want to buy something, they want to be a part of something. And if you are embodying that thing that they want to feel, too, then that just does so much of the selling for you.

[00:13:30] Caroline: Completely. And it's why Jason and I have had a revelation this year. We've always tended to attract solopreneurs or people that mainly build the business around themselves. Maybe they outsource a little bit, maybe they have VAs and things like that, but mainly they're the ones who are building the brand around themselves. We've always accidentally attracted that, but we were open to all kinds of entrepreneurs, and this year we've really made a shift and a focus to try to attract more specifically solopreneurs. And I think it's for that reason that you just described, because we come from that same perspective as well. And we've just realized that's who we are best equipped to help because that's been our path to is just building a brand around your authentic selves.

[00:14:10] Jason: Yeah. And I do think back to my question that I soft pitched the question that I knew the answer to, which is you're very similar to us. And that the biggest thing that I have seen change for us is just, it's the same type of content, it's just the delivery mechanism has changed.

[00:14:27] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:27] Jason: So now it's a podcast or it's a YouTube channel, and for us, it's really, it's an email newsletter. That is really the biggest change. It's like what we used to write blog posts about, we just now write emails about, and there is a little bit more structure and strategy to it. And I think that's the one thing where you get so much credit, and I definitely have seen this evolve for you over the years where you're a smart marketer, whether you like think you're doing it or not, you do it intuitively, where you go, "I'm going to put out a piece of content." But then you think like, "But if I'm going to put out this piece of content, is there a thing that's going to help someone else accomplish what I've accomplished? Oh, I can make a resource for that, whether it's a planner, whether it's a course, whether it's a whatever." And that gets attached to it. And I think that's the missing piece for a lot of people is that they just want to make content and there's no actually real marketing or promotion or anything initiative to it...

[00:15:11] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:11] Jason: ...which is totally fine if that's not your goal, but if your goal is to have a profitable business, a lot of times it's anchoring that content to something that people can buy.

[00:15:18] Michelle: Yeah, I am always selling. I think that's the other thing, too, is every email, I don't think you've ever had an email from me, Jason, where I wasn't selling something. And I know that goes against rules, traditional rules with online marketing is you want to give, give, give, give, give, give, give, give, and then have something to sell. And I'm like, the stuff I'm selling is where it's at. This is good stuff. So I am always showing people what I have to offer and I just make it feel very, I'm not like selling what I'm selling, I'm just showing it's available so it doesn't feel like I'm selling. I'm just showing, "Here, you listen to this. You might like this. "Here, I improved this product. Here's the link if you want to go check it out." Like I'm just making it very easy for people to learn more or to see what's available, but I'm not like saying, "Here's all of my answers to why you might object to this, or here are all the reasons why you need to buy it." I don't do any of that. I'm just always showing people, here's what I have, here's what's in the shop. And yeah, I always, every single email newsletter has something that's for sale. Like it has tons of things that I'm selling in every newsletter. And I have never once gotten a complaint. I only have people say, "I love your newsletter. I look forward to it every week. It feels like Christmas in my inbox. It's so beautiful. I can't wait." And I think it's because of the energy behind how I'm doing it. It's not this desperate, "You need to buy from me." It's, "I have some pretty amazing, beautiful things, and I know you'd love it. So here's an easy way to go check those things out. You don't have to, but I made it easy for you."

[00:17:16] Caroline: Yeah, you don't have to convince anyone, right?

[00:17:18] Jason: Yeah, exactly.

[00:17:18] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:17:19] Jason: Let's talk about breaking some rules because...

[00:17:21] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:17:22] Jason: ...around here, we love breaking rules and doing things differently. But I remember there's a really fun story back when we first started chatting. I remember, I think it was maybe our second call that we did our one-on-one coaching. And I remember you saying, "I think I'm going to delete my entire email list." Which at the time was probably almost 10,000 people, if I remember correctly.

[00:17:42] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:42] Jason: Like it was a sizable email list most people would really want to have. And I remember my gut reaction as someone who's supposed to be "business coaching you" was like, hold on a second. This is a bad idea.

[00:17:54] Caroline: Wait, wait, wait.

[00:17:54] Jason: But then I had the other part of me that just loves doing things differently and breaking the rules. So I was like, "Yeah, let's do it. This sounds fun. Let's just burn the whole thing down." So can you take us back to that moment of why you did that, what led you to that decision and then where it actually has gone from there?

[00:18:10] Michelle: Man, it was a crazy decision, but all genuinely intuitive decisions are crazy, and it was an intuitive decision. I think I was heavily pregnant with my first child. He's five years old now, and I think that alone was getting my brain to switch into a different gear. Like, you're going to be a mama soon. You can't play the same games anymore. And one of the games I didn't want to play anymore was the freebie email game. There's nothing wrong with trading emails for freebies. It just wasn't a playground I wanted to play in anymore. It wasn't fun anymore. I was building my list with these people who signed up for a free thing and just wanted more free things. And I know there's ways to convert people and all of that, but I was like, how can I create a business full of customers? I don't want to be on this train of, how do I convert people who signed up to my list for a free thing? And hopefully I can get them to buy something? I didn't want to do that anymore. So I deleted 10,000 people from my list. The only people I kept on the list were people who had bought something. And what that did was it switched my brain into this gear of, okay, time to create customers. Because the only way to get on my list from that point on for the next few years was to become a customer. There was no way to join my newsletter without buying something first. And that made me start to think of ways of how do we create at least one customer a day? And that was like a filter that I applied to my brain. Like one customer a day. That is the assignment.

[00:19:57] Caroline: Yes.

[00:19:58] Michelle: And my brain just started giving me answers, like do this, do that. Clean up the sales page. Make the product better. Make it easier for people to buy. Make that button bigger. It just gave me energetic solutions, tactical solutions. And I started creating at least one customer a day. And one of the things that I did, too, was all the things that used to be free, I made pay what you want. I was like if you can't at least pay a dollar for it, then you probably don't want it anyway. So I just made it so easy for people to become customers. And it's so much easier to sell more to people who have already bought something than to try to sell something to people who never bought something. And so, what I started to do was create this ladder where people would start at a very low-cost product and just continuously buy more and more and go up this ladder where the offerings became more expensive, but also more amazing. And so, I just had customers buy thing after thing after thing where that $1 pay what you want customer could end up being a $2,000 customer because of the journey they went on. That has held true to this day. Every day I create a new customer minimum. Now it's more than that, more than one minimum. But in the beginning, it was at least one customer a day. Can we do that? Can we make our business about solving for that equation? And that really did change everything because I don't think I would have been gotten on the trajectory that led me to where I am right now if it wasn't for that brave bold pregnant decision that I made back then. And yeah, it was scary, but it was exciting because I knew it was the right thing to do.

[00:21:50] Caroline: I love that. And again, going back to what we were saying before, I think that is the benefit of when you build a business that evolves based on your own personal growth is this very big change was happening in your personal life and it was a catalyst for a big business change. And that is the benefit that you get, and I think what we were saying about your email list and the fact that you have no qualms about selling in every email is because you very strategically made this big, bold move to build a list of customers. And so, they've already met the minimum bar of, "I'm here because I'm willing to exchange money for value. And so, cool. Just give me more of that amazing value that I've already received." So I think that's such an interesting strategy. It also points out something that we talk a lot about inside WAIM, which is we'll give you a blueprint of how we've built our business. But again, you've heard this over and over again, if your business is built to fit around you as a person, we're all individuals. So we very much like to empower people to do the thing that works for you. We always talk about unicorn power engage like you're a unicorn. Make your business to fit you as a unicorn. And the last thing I just want to touch on is the one sale a day.

[00:23:01] Jason: Yeah.

[00:23:02] Caroline: Because that is such a powerful takeaway for someone, I think solopreneurs, especially because there's so many things to do, we get overwhelmed very easily. And we do have these financial goals. Hopefully those financial goals are based on an enough number where this number you're working toward. But I love one sale a day breaks it down to this very bite sized, very actionable. And like you said, by making the focus so micro, it actually revealed these very micro solutions. And micro solutions add up to very big impact.

[00:23:35] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:35] Jason: Do you remember what some of the first products were when you started to try to achieve the one sale per day? Just curious going back to that mindset, because I think it's really helpful, and also keyword cookie shop.

[00:23:46] Caroline: Okay. Great.

[00:23:46] Jason: I want to come back to my cookie shop idea, but I think it's really helpful for people who might be listening to this, who are thinking to themselves like, "Oh, I have an email list. None of them are customers. I have maybe a product that I sell, but I don't necessarily think I could sell." It's like, say it's a $500 product or something like that, whatever. "I don't think I could sell one of those per day. I think it takes a longer time." And I think you were in the same position, at least like, what could I sell every day that's something that people would buy? So I'm curious if you remember what some of those first things that you put up for sale or maybe you already had that you started charging for like you mentioned?

[00:24:18] Michelle: I had a lot of printables so those could be very low-cost products. I had my course, which was, I think, $300, and I had a membership at the time. So I did have like an array. But I think that you can at least, even if all you have is like a $500 product, you can look at that product and think, what can I pull out of here and charge a small amount for? And then that small amount becomes an easy way for people to buy into the big thing. And I've done this multiple times with my products. I'll take a product that costs a larger amount of money, and I will pull a module out of it and sell it for a smaller amount of money and then let people upgrade to the bigger thing with what they paid for the smaller thing. And that literally has made me tens of thousands of dollars that I would not have made if I just had people only have the option of going from zero to the big thing. And I'm doing it right now. Right now, I'm selling a 30-day program called the Abundance Adventure for $47. And people can take that $47 that they bought, that they used to buy the Abundance Adventure with, and use that money to upgrade to a program called Say Yes to Desire, which includes the Abundance Adventure as well. So I have people who will immediately buy the Abundance Adventure, or buy the Abundance Adventure and then immediately message me because I have it, again, this has to be easy for your customer. Marketing is about making it as easy for your customer as possible to go from A to B to C to D. So when they buy the Abundance Adventure, in that program, there's a lesson that says, "Hey, if you want to upgrade with your $47, copy and paste this message and send it to me in the chat button, and it says, "Hey, I just bought the Abundance Adventure. I'm ready to upgrade with my $47 coupon." So I will get messages, and then I'll send people the link to upgrade with their $47 coupon. And then that $47 customer turns into a $333 customer. So this isn't just about, oh, $47 is not a lot of money, or pay what you want is not a lot of money. This is about creating customers, because those customers, that $1 person will buy the $10 thing, will buy the $30 thing, will buy the $100 thing, will buy the $500 thing, and you just have to make it easy for people to go on that journey. So that's really what you're thinking of when you're thinking of how do I create a customer a day. You're thinking of lifetime, lifetime value And someone who buys everything from me, which is what my true fans tend to do. Everything I have and everything I recommend that's worth thousands and thousands of dollars. And it can start with a $1 printable.

[00:27:20] Jason: I think the idea is there and that if you build your business based on free, it is always going to be an uphill battle to reach profitability. Always.

[00:27:28] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:28] Jason: And I think that, especially in the digital product space, this is a big rule that people follow, which is to give away a bunch of stuff for free and then hit them over the head with some sales and eventually they'll all convert to customers. And I just love that you made this bold decision so many years ago to be like, "No, I am actually starting the relationship with someone who's going to pay at least $1 for one of these delicious cookies that I make, and then they'll come back into my shop because I'm going to keep making more things. I'm going to keep making more things, and they're going to be helpful, and they're going to be fun, and they're going to be enlightening." And they become a part of your journey. And I just think that's a really important delineation in our space, specifically that most people think is the way you have to do things got to give away the freebies, got to build the email list, got to have 10,000 people before I start selling something. It's like, no, you could actually start your email list with five people who are customers that have paid you $5, but those people are actually a better customer than 500 people who've paid you nothing, who actually aren't that interested in ever paying you.

[00:28:24] Caroline: I think the key to that comes from the confidence in your offers, the confidence in the value that you're providing. And I'm curious, I'm sort of making this connection in real time. I think part of what I see in your business of where that confidence comes from is you have always, since the first day that I met you, what has struck me about you is you are such an action taker. You are all about, okay, if I'm in this situation and I want to change that situation, what are the steps, what are the actions I can take to get from point A to point B? I feel like that's how you are oriented. And I tend to find that taking action builds your confidence. And I'm just curious, so many things like where do you think that action taking comes from? And what's your feeling about whether taking all of those actions adds up to a confidence in the value that you provide your customers?

[00:29:14] Michelle: I think my action-orientedness really comes from just completely trusting in the magic of inspired action. So when I'm taking action, it's not this action of, oh, I need to do this, needs to get done. Follow these steps. The action I'm taking, and Jason can see it because I'm always giving him the fruition of my actions in Slack. Like, "Here's a link for this, here's a link for that. I made the sales press, I need you to put it." So I am always creating, always taking action, but it's from an inspired place. Sometimes the things I send you, Jason, I had no idea I was going to make that 24 hours beforehand. Like it's always something that was just hitting me out of nowhere, and I just had to make it happen. And when I'm in that energy, I will get a week's worth of work done in a day. That's the flow state. Like that's that magical place where anything is possible and you're a genius and you can create like some sort of Merlin. And so, that really is where a lot of my creativity comes from is just always honoring that. I never say, "Oh, this is shiny object syndrome." I never say, "Oh, well, I need to get my taxes done first." They get done. They just don't...

[00:30:40] Caroline: They get done. They get done. Okay.

[00:30:42] Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course.

[00:30:42] Michelle: But I'm always honoring that. I never say no to that. And it just always hits me. I think that when you listen to your intuition, it just says, oh, it's safe to keep talking, then it's safe to keep communicating here. But when you're always setting that intuition down, it's like, okay, I guess I'll just go dormant. So the more I honor that, the more the intuition just keeps revving up, and the more powerful it gets and the more fast I get and the more it just keeps growing. So when I sit down at my computer, I'll just get an idea out of nowhere of something I'm excited to work on. And then three days later, I have a whole brand-new product, and then two days later, I have an extra $10,000. And that is how I create. And I do have things that are on the list that's like, oh, you should do this, and you got to update that, and you got to fix this. But I never make that go above the inspired action. I never make that more urgent or important. Like yeah, it needs to get done, but this is my business, and I call the shots so I can get it done whenever I want to.

[00:31:57] Caroline: Yup.

[00:31:57] Michelle: And no one cares either way. So I think we put these rules around our work and our creativity that we've dragged in from school or corporate, when really, this business, I realized this is completely my playground. I can do whatever I want, and if I can make a place where I can honor me being the most powerful version of myself, that's what I'm going to do. And I think maybe we are afraid to do that because we were never given permission to do that in other areas. We were never shown how to do that. We were never praised for that. I remember my very short stint in real school as a kid. I wanted to do something that I felt inspired to do, and the teacher wanted me to do something else, and I didn't see anything wrong with doing what I wanted, and the teacher got really mad at me and made that a really sad day. And I can just see how we all have that in our system, and yet we don't need to do that as adults with our own businesses. So it's really about, can you make your business a place to honor what you actually feel like doing? I 100% know there's things on our plate that we need to do that we don't feel like doing, but a lot of that is optional. Like, a lot of the things that I have on my list that says, "Michelle, you should do all these things." They're 100% optional, unless it's taxes or...

[00:33:40] Caroline: Really that.

[00:33:40] Michelle: ...a broken link in the course.

[00:33:42] Caroline: And a broken link, exactly.

[00:33:43] Jason: Yeah.

[00:33:43] Caroline: Taxes and broken links. That's about it.

[00:33:45] Jason: You're a really great example for people. You have two kids. You started a business that you were doing mostly client income before you were making digital product income. And so, I think this is truly possible. And I also think, I know you've had some ups and downs in that journey, but I don't necessarily see from what I've been able to see you haven't had a massive bit of burnout. You haven't had to completely pivot your business and go get a job for a while. And I think that intuitive creating and that intuitive selling and that intuitive marketing so much of it, there are things you learn, right? Like there are things you pick up along the way. There are strategies and tactics that you apply, but a lot of it is just you leaning into, I'm just really inspired to do X, and I'm actually seeing that there are people around me who like what I create that are also inspired to do that. And so, I'm just going to lean in to do that. And instead of, oh, I should have a Tripwire, and I should have all these shitty tactics that none of us really want to be doing. It's instead going, let me just make something amazing. Let me make something really fun for people. Let me make something like I can't wait to sit down on my computer and create. And I don't know how many people have ever wanted to sit down at their computer and build a funnel. I think there are some real special people who like to do that, but I think the rest of us, it's like, I want to make a new course. I want to make a new template. I want to make a new thing that helps someone accomplish a task or a goal or just have some fun. And I think there's not enough of that. And I think too many people get caught up in the tactics and the action taking of the things. And as an action taker, I love those things. But I think a lot of it is you're fighting against your own intuition, like you've said, and I think you push back against that as yet another thing that you do to buck the trends of what other people fall into and what they do.

[00:35:21] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:21] Caroline: Yeah. And joy is such an abundant well. And so, I think what gets people into a lot of trouble with burnout is they're not creating from a place of true joy. Like we said, they're creating from a place of the shoulds or the blueprints out there, what I think the industry is telling me to do. And when you are actually creating from that place of true, I mean, to go back to the authenticity thing, but truly, this is authentically what I want to be making, what I want to be expressing, what I want to be putting into the world, it's a lot easier for that well to just feel infinite because joy is infinite.

[00:35:56] Jason: Speaking of joy and things that don't spark joy for any of us, that would be being on social media. And I love that you...

[00:36:04] Caroline: Almost.

[00:36:05] Jason: ...like us, have basically stepped away from using social media for business. And I would just love for you to share what that was like, what that felt like to step away and then have you had thoughts of coming back? Do you see any need for it as far as a business standpoint, mostly. But what are your thoughts on using social media, Instagram, maybe specifically, or anything else that you do use that actually seems helpful?

[00:36:27] Michelle: So with social media, I had a Facebook group with, it was only for students. So again, it was not a freebie group. It was just for people who had bought my courses, and I had been using Instagram. And I would make lots of money in the Facebook group. I could put a post in there, and I would make thousands of dollars. And I think it was around this time of year. At the last Olympics, I closed the group. And I remember it because Simone Biles had dropped out of the Olympics for her mental health, and I had decided to leave social media at that time. And it was really scary to my pattern of putting myself last, because here I am with thousands of women who love these groups, and they weren't just like any old Facebook group. These groups were beautiful groups where people just felt this elevated energy. And I really took care of these spaces. And I was in there, but I had just had my second kid. My life is changing. My priorities are changing. And also, there's a lot going on in the world. There's COVID, there's racism uproar. There is just so many things going on that I'm dealing with personally, and then all my community's dealing with it. And then there's this kind of this underlying expectation of I can come into the group, and I spill out my dramas. And because the groups were growing so fast, I started to get more people who just weren't familiar with my philosophy, my approach, and they were just bringing in a lot of their bad habits. And so, I started to feel like I was putting out fires. I started to feel like people would start pick fights with each other. And then I'm on a walk with my kids, and I'm being tagged like crazy to come into my group and to fix this problem. And she called me a racist, and I was like, "What the heck is going on?" So I remember I did a video in the group where I just basically addressed everyone in the group, and I was like, "You know what? If you guys have a disagreement, something happens, I am out for a walk with my kid. I am not in this group trying to keep everybody adult." And I just realized that this is not expanding me anymore. And my business is for my expansion, that's what keeps everything afloat. If I start putting myself last to give everyone what they want or what I think they want, then this is all going to fall apart. At one point in time, opening up a Facebook group was scary, was expansive. It was something that I had to grow into. But at that point in time, with two kids and a whole lot to deal with, I saw that for me to keep growing, I had to close those groups.

[00:39:43] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:43] Michelle: I had to get off of Facebook, off of Instagram, even though I was making good money from those, even though I'm the sole income provider. So it was really scary. It was interesting that after I closed those groups, I started getting a lot of thank yous, people saying, "Thank you so much. I loved your groups, but I realized that I was going in there and asking questions and trying to get help, when really I just needed to go and do the damn thing." I had people say, "I really wanted to go into the group and ask this question, but because there was no group, I had to just go do it." Like people started to just sit with themselves. And I realized that this is just further confirmation of what I keep learning, which is when you put yourself first, we all get to come first.

[00:40:41] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:42] Michelle: By closing those groups, I wasn't putting anyone else last. I was giving them the space to put themselves first. And so, I just keep trying to honor this approach of, "Michelle, it is safe for you to put yourself first, and that is always going to keep you on the right path." And so, it's so much bigger than just quitting social media. Quitting social media was just a byproduct of what's the next step in you putting yourself first, Michelle? As long as I honor that, everything takes care of itself because by doing that, I was able to align myself with what was aligned for me, and that was doing more with email marketing. I took email marketing to a whole new level. I had barely been emailing my list before, and now I'm starting to email them every week. And I created a kit with Maria Alejandra called the Pretty Email Kit, and I started sending the most beautiful emails you ever did see. And I just started to have a whole lot more fun with it and did more with affiliate marketing. So it's just a whole new world opened up where I could express myself and be more available in an authentic way. I have a group where I do monthly calls where we get on camera, and we talk, and we cry and we just have that space to talk to each other without the need for 10 emojis to make sure our tone is getting across. And I've told people, if you want to have a place where you can have a sense of community, join that group, which is part of my Say Yes to Desire program. So there's these options for people where if they do want that type of access, that type of community that is available, I just wasn't going to try to do that in a Facebook group anymore, and my income didn't suffer. I went on to make a million dollars in revenue even without Facebook and Instagram. And the way I see it is those platforms are just like a machine that you're feeding into and it's not really working for you the way you have been told. We have podcasting, Pinterest, Google, YouTube, these are search engine platforms where you're probably barely scraping the surface of what's possible with those. And the content that you put on search engines have the power to go up in value over time. The content that you put on Facebook and Instagram is always going to go down in value over time. So it has only been a better business move to get off of Facebook and Insta, but it was first and foremost an aligned move.

[00:43:33] Caroline: Michelle might have just convinced me to never go back. Because we are currently off, but we have been dabbling with the idea of going back on. And now you might have just convinced me to just never go back on because I resonate so much with your answer about, and again, this is the theme of the conversation, is it comes from that place of what did you need as a person? And giving yourself permission to lead with that and make business decisions based on that, and even that act in itself being a moment of personal growth for you and similarly for us when we were traveling and this is still in the COVID era and everything, and I was finding the same thing. I was finding that spending time on these platforms was leading me to this. It was giving me a darker outlook on the world. It was drowning out my own opinions in my own voice because I was constantly being shouted out by anyone else's opinions, which for a creative person is not good because you can't create from that joyful, abundant place when you have other people's opinions in your head all the time. And I found that taking a step back from all of that, it was the most creative I felt, the most peaceful I felt. And as you pointed out, it created space. Like when you remove things, it creates opportunities for other things to come into that space. And so, the way that you were able to evolve your business, the way that you were able to build your other skills, and then, like you said, creating your sort of in-person community so that people can have real connections, but it doesn't go into that place where Facebook can so easily go of, we're all behind our keyboards and we're just sort of coming to this place to waste time and complain. Right?

[00:45:15] Jason: I have held this strong belief for a very long time that it's a huge fallacy in the usefulness of social media for business. And I think that there are many arguments to that. And everybody has their different opinions or even their own history of, "Hey, this has worked for me. And I can show you, I've made five, six, seven figures in my business directly through this platform." And that's great if that works for you, but I think for people who are like us, that are, again, more intuitive creators, more soulful people, even though I come off as an emotional robot, I do have a soul.

[00:45:43] Caroline: It's in there, trust me.

[00:45:43] Jason: It's in there. It's just surrounded by cinnamon rolls. It's just covered.

[00:45:48] Caroline: Right.

[00:45:48] Jason: But I think the biggest thing that I have seen from us leaving social media, from you leaving social media, and I think this is the place where most people get it wrong and they don't understand is that you're actually depositing a lot more time into these platforms than you think and energy that you then don't have to apply to other things. When you get that time and energy back, it can now go into other things, but that's the key, is that that's where you have to go, well, I have to put this energy into something else. So it's like you said, I have to put it into Pinterest, I have to put it into YouTube, I have to put it into writing emails. You can't just step off of those platforms and then go, "Well, nothing's working better in my business. My revenues are clients." Like yeah, because you have to do other things. Like you made the space, but you do have to take action and do other things in other places.

[00:46:30] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:30] Jason: So I just want to give you a lot of credit because it has been very fun to watch and hear that you have generated a million dollars in your business being completely off of social media, which I think is very inspiring.

[00:46:39] Caroline: That's huge. So now, this is just a selfish question because I think we have so many things in alignment of the way that we do business, but one of the bigger differences between our businesses is how many digital products you sell. And selfishly, I am just curious, how do you stay so organized, stay so calm and collected with all of the moving parts that you have in your business? Because you manage it all so well. And I don't know if that comes from just being genuinely excited and just, it makes sense to you to connect them all. But I'm curious how you would explain that to someone, if someone does want to go that route versus having just one core offer, but really they want to sell multiple things.

[00:47:16] Michelle: I've had experience working with people who only sold one thing, and in my opinion, it was 100 times more complicated than what I do right now. So it all comes down to the energy behind what you're doing because I actually love simplicity, I love efficiency, I love knowing where everything is. And so, you could take that energy and no matter what your model looks like, behind the scenes is going to look serene. But if you have this energy of, "Nothing's enough, and I got to do this and I got to do that." Then whether you sell one thing or 100 things, that behind the scenes is going to reflect that energy. So I genuinely love to create whatever I want. I genuinely love having this ladder to my offerings where people can come in wherever feels aligned for them at whatever price point. And the fact that I have all these options just helps me, it just feels aligned. And then behind the scenes it's very, very organized because that's who I am. I remember being a little kid and I loved having my things where they belonged, and I loved having my little cigar box with my little trinkets. My son is the same way. If you go into his, he is just like me. His favorite thing is to go into his closet with its little cubbyholes, take everything out and then put it all back in.

[00:48:47] Caroline: I love that. Literally like...

[00:48:49] Jason: Amazing. That's me.

[00:48:49] Caroline: ...we will have a child like that...

[00:48:50] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, that's me.

[00:48:51] Caroline: ...because that's Jason doing.

[00:48:52] Jason: Yeah.

[00:48:53] Michelle: And I asked him, "What are you doing?" "I'm organizing, mama."

[00:48:56] Jason: Amazing. So good.

[00:48:58] Michelle: So my version of that, my version of his cubbyholes is Notion. And you guys are the ones who introduced me to Notion and then helped me get solidified into Notion. And I took a month earlier this year where I just went even deeper into, how do I make Notion work for me, because I know I'm just scraping the surface. So just one of the things that I do is I have a master product spreadsheet in Notion with all of my products in there and like I have a column of these are the things that I want to do next for each product. And I have a column where this box signifies, if I check it off, then I did this particular thing for this particular, like it's all laid out on one page. And I love being able to see things on one page and that it really can be that simple. And then the links are really easy. So everything, I have no assistance, no team, no anything right now, haven't had for years. And it's because I just have everything super organized in Notion. Like if I'm going to send an email newsletter, I go into the email newsletter page and I click the link to open Flodesk, click the link to open Canva, click the link to open that website, create my stuff. I have notes for the things that I want to announce that I've added to throughout the week. And then one hour later, I have a newsletter. Like it's all organized. So I just make it so easy for me to find everything. I have four main places in Notion. One is an inbox page. That's where I just dump anything that comes into my brain. So nothing stays in my brain. I 100% believe in David Allen's quote, "Your mind is for having ideas, not storing them." So anything that comes into my brain goes right into the inbox. I have another page, that's the index page, where it has all of my business workings on that page divided into categories, all on one page. And it's pages within pages within pages, but you can see everything on one page. And then the third thing that I have is my home dashboard. So the place where I go for the day when it's only going to show me the relevant information for that day, so it's filtered to only show me, "These are the projects you want to work on this month. These are the things that are on your to do list today." And then the fourth thing is I have another index for home management. And then as far as like day-to-day nitty-gritty, it's just like whatever I feel like, whether it's using a form of Google Calendar, working from inside Notion, using a paper planner, even this one is branded to say, "The magic is you. Everything is better when I put myself first." Or using a digital planner. So whatever I feel like using that day to put, these are the things I'm going to get done this day. And I didn't read Cal Newport's latest book about "Slow Productivity."

[00:52:09] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:09] Michelle: I think that's what it's called. But I did hear you mention a line from it, Caroline, and it's a line that also stood out to me, which was, "I pull things onto my plate versus having things pushed onto my plate."

[00:52:24] Caroline: Yup.

[00:52:24] Michelle: And I don't know the context of that, but I take it to mean is on a day-to-day basis, I decide what goes on my plate. I don't let the Michelle from two weeks ago say, "Hey, Michelle, two weeks from now, you're going to work on this on Tuesday, July 4th." I decide, this is what I'm actually going to do today. I don't care what you said two weeks ago. This is my business. And so, I have everything in Notion where whether I decide to do it or not, it's there, it's out of my brain. But on a day-to-day basis, I do what I decide to do, I do what I'm inspired to do, and everything always gets done perfectly from that energy.

[00:53:13] Caroline: Love that. Two things I want to highlight. Number one, it sounds like we work very similarly, which is like I love being organized as well, and I love getting things out of my brain and assigning them to a day so that I know that I have earmarked it to get done. But then every day when I arrive to my schedule, like you said, I'm the boss today. So previous Caroline's not the boss. She was the boss of last Tuesday and she got her time, but today, this Caroline is the boss of this Tuesday. And so, that yeah, I think you interpreted that quote exactly as I did, which is pulling things onto your plate. And what that makes me think of is another thing you said that I really want to highlight because in that pulling onto your plate in the current day, it's an active decision-making process. And the one thing that you said about on the surface our offers might look different because you have several and we only have a few, but what you said is something that I will carry forward, which is, but the vibe of simplicity, that is a choice behind the scenes. By choosing that the things that you're doing are enough, by choosing to be organized, by choosing to bring this aura of simplicity, it doesn't matter how many offers you have. It's this active decision-making that you bring to your business. And I love that because it reminds me that it really isn't about the number of offers being complex on its face. It's what energy do you bring to your business? Do you bring the not enough energy, which will always lead to more complexity because you're always going to try to eke out and squeeze out those extra drops of revenue from every little tactic you're doing, versus the enough mindset, which lends itself to simplicity and calm because you say, "Yeah, good enough, great enough, actually, that I don't have to try to find these little tenths of a percentage point of revenue across everything that I'm doing."

[00:55:02] Jason: As two people who came from having tons of things for sale to consolidating down to one which felt great for us, I think it's very fun to watch you continue to execute well as one person managing all these different products. And there was a question we were going to ask you before we started this interview that was about, what's your launch strategy? And I think even just talking this through, we kind of all have an idea. Well, at least we have an idea you know what your launch strategy is. But for the person listening to this, is there any specific strategy, or is it really just the intuitive creation and the marketing and selling happens when you feel that way? Because that's where I think the answer would go. But I am curious if you do have any type of calendar...

[00:55:41] Caroline: How you use your product. Yeah.

[00:55:41] Jason: ...for the year and you think about like, "Oh, these are the times that I see the most sales." Or does it get that strategic? Or is it really just going with the flow?

[00:55:50] Michelle: It is going with the flow. I have what I call an intuitive launch strategy, which is you wake up in the morning, it's like what do I want to do for my launch today? That is how I've been doing it for years. And I always get the best idea, because the ideas that you have in the moment are always going to be better than the ideas you had three weeks ago trying to come up with things in the ether. I 100% believe in strategy. I 100% believe in being able to look at your calendar and make connections and to plan things in advance so that it makes sense. Like I 100% know that it's just kind of in the background and it doesn't ever replace what is true in the moment.

[00:56:42] Caroline: Which is what we were saying about the schedule. Right?

[00:56:44] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:44] Caroline: It's like a similar pattern where it's like previous me can look at the calendar and create a general strategy and set me up so that I don't have to scramble in the moment, but current you is always going to be the authority on what gets done, which I love. Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to make that connection because I feel like it's very similar.

[00:57:01] Michelle: Yeah. And I think that my best strategy comes from honoring what comes up in the moment. Like I will have ideas in the middle of the day for how I want to sell something that I'm promoting at that time, and that idea will end up making a ton of money. There's this little voice that says, "Wait, you didn't make that part of the plan, therefore you can't do it." But that's where I'm always tuning into, if it feels exciting, if it feels like you could just sit down and get it done right now, then do it, because that always ends up being, it's the energy that people connect with. They don't care that it was part of this meticulous 10 pages deep Notion strategy. It's the energy. People can feel the energy. That's why whenever I'm promoting something, it's never because, "Oh, I planned out three months ago that this would be really good to promote in September." It is always because I just feel like this is the right time right now, like the Abundance Adventure, which I'm doing right now. I've had this product in my pocket for a year and a half, and I just never felt like selling it to the entire community until right now. And I just know that that is how I'm able to sell things. First and foremost, it's not because of how good the sales page looks. It's not because of the copy. It's not because of whatever hitting red, whatever pain points. It's because there's an energy inside of me that they're able to feel. And I have to wait for that energy to be there. I can't fake it. I can't overcompensate for it. It has to be there. And that turns into the ideas and the strategy and the pivots that create a successful launch for me.

[00:59:13] Jason: I think you're very special. I don't think the intuitive launching is for everybody, but I do think it has worked extremely well for you. And I think it's a good permission set for some people who just don't want to follow a specific way of selling their things.

[00:59:27] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:59:27] Jason: And if this works better for you, I think that's the thing we always lean. As business coaches, we always try to be open to every single person is different. Every single person has different circumstances. Some tactics work really well for the people who are like, "Just give me the tactics, please. I cannot get out of my own way. I need to be told what to do." And some people like you, I think you need the space to be able to go, "I just want to do this in my own way and feel what feels good." And over time, I think, like you said, there's a lot of background tasks that are going behind the scenes that most people have not earned over years of doing this, where you just it's very natural based on your, "Oh, okay, this feels like the right time to do this. And now I can launch this thing and I'm going to have it up for sale for three days because that's what feels right. And then I'm going to move on to the next thing." And those are things that they are strategic. They just aren't strategically planned because you don't have to, because you've done it so much. Can we do one last bold Michelle move in this? Which we also have done.

[01:00:18] Caroline: Let's do it.

[01:00:19] Jason: So I think we have just been in very much life alignment these past couple years.

[01:00:23] Caroline: Yes.

[01:00:23] Jason: And one of those things, completely uprooting your entire life in the US and moving to a country where I believe you had never stepped foot before, like us, and you just decided to move from the US with your family to Portugal. And what was that like? How did that feel? Where did it stem from? And then you've been here for, I think, over a year and a half now like us, two years.

[01:00:46] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:00:46] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:47] Jason: Where do you see that going moving forward?

[01:00:50] Michelle: Well, we had just moved to Miami, and we had just settled in. And I remember we watched a YouTube video of a family that had moved from America to Lisbon, and we just had stumbled across that video. And then we decided to take a walk. At the beginning of the walk, we're like, "What if we move to Portugal?" And by the end of the walk, we're like, "We were moving to Portugal."

[01:01:15] Caroline: It's my favorite.

[01:01:16] Jason: That's a great walk.

[01:01:17] Caroline: Yeah, good luck.

[01:01:18] Michelle: So that's how the decision was made. And I have always felt a resonance with Europe. I've always felt connected here. I love the quality of life. And so, it was just a matter of getting over here, which took a couple of tries. And once we got here, it was amazing. We had never been here before, and we were just struck by how family friendly it is. I felt like my kids just had immediate access to hundreds of new aunts and uncles because of how friendly everyone was. There's a story I like to tell. I took my kid to a restaurant, and we walked in, and it was packed. The only place to sit were at these high bar stool chairs by the window. And these two Portuguese women sitting at table saw us and they were in the middle of eating their lunch, and they saw us come in, they saw us sitting at the bar stools, and they picked up all their food and came and traded places with us and told us to go sit at their table. I'm going to get emotional. And I just love that. I just felt so seen, and it's just been more and more experiences like that. My husband has cried over experiences like that, and I love it here.

[01:02:53] Jason: Yeah.

[01:02:53] Michelle: I feel emotional.

[01:02:53] Caroline: It's a beautiful place.

[01:02:54] Michelle: You guys asked the wrong question.

[01:02:57] Caroline: No, I know. Apologies, but we feel the same way. It's a really a beautiful place. It's a beautiful culture, and coming from the United States, which there are plenty of positive things about living and being born in the United States, of course, but like you said, the sensibility here in Europe, but more specifically, it's just so special in Portugal and the community feeling, the rich history, the warmth and the openness, especially to people whose Portuguese is very rusty, and we're trying, but there's nowhere like it that we've experienced. So you telling that story is very moving to me as well. And also, I just go, of course that happened because that seems like something that would happen with the two Portuguese women.

[01:03:41] Jason: Selfishly, from the staying on business track for a second.

[01:03:44] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:03:44] Jason: Do you think moving to Portugal has made a big impact in your creativity, working on your business, having more positive feelings towards sitting down and creating every day? Or do you think that's kind of been the same whether you lived in the US or not?

[01:04:00] Michelle: It's having a deeper effect on my business because moving to Portugal has forced me to do me more. Like when you leave a country and you move somewhere where you don't know anyone, you're not around a family, you're not around your old routines, it forces you to really look at, "Okay, who am I? Where am I going? What am I doing?" And so, I remember the first year being really hard actually, because I just had to cut a lot of energetic cords and a lot of things that just were not serving me anymore. And this year, it just feels like I'm laying a foundation and getting more tight on things that were easier to push to the side. So it hasn't really been about a lot of business action, even though I'm sure anyone looking at me, it's like, "What are you talking about, Michelle? You're doing action in business all the time."

[01:05:02] Caroline: Lot of action, yeah.

[01:05:02] Michelle: But in a way, I just feel like I've taken my foot off the gas with business, and I've turned more inward since moving here. And I'm sure that that it's like the bamboo tree metaphor. Like the roots are going so deep that you think that nothing's happening, and then all of a sudden, it's two stories high. I feel like that's what is happening for me right now. Yes, I am doing a lot of business stuff, but in a way, that just feels more deep and more about sinking my teeth into who am I. And what is that next level of doing that work around putting myself first? Because I always think that I'm doing that work, and then a new year comes along, and I'm realizing I didn't know nothing. I'm just getting started.

[01:06:00] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:06:01] Jason: And yeah. And I think the cliche of work-life balance in the way that we think about it is like, "Oh, well, I have time when I'm not working to do all my life things." And I think for you, the way that I hear that answer is the balance is actually more balance for myself as a person.

[01:06:17] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:17] Jason: The person that you were when you were in the US didn't have any time to go deeper, to think more, to really understand what are the things, the energies, all of that for you. And I think as you've moved here, because I think we feel the same way. And without even really realizing it, it just it kind of happened because you actually have a slower pace of life. You have a lot less family drama that's real close to you or whatever. And I'm not saying that you should just escape your family drama, move to Europe, although, if you want to, go ahead. But I think that there...

[01:06:46] Caroline: Highly recommend.

[01:06:46] Jason: There is a balance that's achieved that's not maybe the most recognized in the work-life balance definition, but it's really hard to describe, but I think the way that you described it is the way that I haven't ever thought about articulating it, but we feel the exact same way.

[01:07:02] Caroline: It's an internal balance and internal alignment, and it's almost, in a weird way, reminds me of what we were saying about when you leave social media. Like, what I was saying about you're no longer drowned in the voices of other people. And I think we've both experienced with a big move like that. This, it's similar where it's so hard you have to cut those cords to maybe some of those places where you were reverting back to comfort or blending in with whatever small community you were a part of. And so, when you do cut that cord, those voices that have created so much noise, you're left to your own to figure out who you are again apart from all of that. And that's the gift of starting over. And it can be hard and disorienting. But I totally agree with you. It's been such a great opportunity for me personally and for us, and even us as like a family of going back to the root of it all and saying who are we now? And what is the foundation that, what are the roots we want to put down? What is the foundation that we want to grow for the next however, this next season of life? So I just, I'm constantly inspired by you, Michelle. Like every time we talk, I'm like, "Who's the business coach here?" Okay. Because it goes both ways. I think you know that. And I guess just to wrap things up before we fully in, tell us what you're working on now and where people can find the things that you're working on.

[01:08:16] Michelle: Oh, well, right now, in this moment, I'm hosting a live round for the Abundance Adventure. And this is a 30-day container helping people through everything I wish I learned at the beginning of my business journey because I've realized that the goal is not to build a successful business. The goal is to create freedom. And those two don't necessarily automatically equal each other. So that's what I'm doing right now. There's three live calls that I'm hosting in August. If you want to check it out, go to secretowlsociety.org., you can find the Abundance Adventure. You can find my planners, my courses, my podcast. Everything is at secretowlsociety.org.

[01:08:59] Jason: Awesome.

[01:09:00] Caroline: Amazing.

[01:09:00] Jason: Thank you so much, Michelle. We appreciate it. I hope people listening to this got a bunch of actionable takeaways, but in a way that feels intuitive to them.

[01:09:08] Caroline: Exactly.

[01:09:08] Jason: So they don't have to put them on their future calendar. They can just today internalize those things and use them. But we have loved watching your business evolve. You evolve as a person. So fun that we live in the same country. We got to meet for the first time in person, which is just...

[01:09:21] Caroline: Even though it felt like we had already done that. It felt like this can't be the first time we're meeting, right?

[01:09:24] Jason: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[01:09:26] Caroline: Yeah. We just thank you so much for taking the time out, and we are constantly inspired by you. And I hope everyone listening had a lot of takeaways that will inspire them as well.

[01:09:34] Michelle: Thank you, Jason and Caroline, you, Teachery, Wandering Aimfully has been amazing for me, my life, my family. So I am so grateful for you guys, too.