199 - The truth about working with your spouse

[00:00:00] Caroline: Welcome to Growing Steady, the show where we help online creators like you build a calm business, one that's predictable, profitable, and peaceful. We're your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an un-boring business coaching program, and Teachery, an online course platform for designers. Join us each week as we help you reach your business goals without sacrificing your well being in the process. Slow and steady is the way we do things around here, baby.

[00:00:29] Jason: All right, cinnamon rollers, that's you. Let's get into the show. Okay, here we are. We're recording an episode.

[00:00:41] Caroline: Yes.

[00:00:41] Jason: Hey.

[00:00:42] Caroline: Yes.

[00:00:42] Jason: Before. Well, we have lots of things to pramble about. Not really lots. Just baking items that people are so curious about.

[00:00:49] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:00:49] Jason: And I'm still getting Creami around here, which is great. 

[00:00:52] Caroline: Wish you wouldn't. 

[00:00:53] Jason: For those of you who have not listened to those previous episodes, you know, I'm making ice cream. That's what it is.

[00:00:57] Caroline: You've been on a roll this year. Can I just tell you?

[00:01:00] Jason: Yeah. Before that, I did want to say, though, just to kick this off, this is one of those episodes where we write some notes, and then we're like, haven't we recorded about this topic, like, seven times already? And then I go and look back through our episodes, or we're almost at 200 episodes. Two. We've done two episodes that are related to us working together as, like, a partnership.

[00:01:20] Caroline: I think we're talking about it all the time. I'm like, ugh.

[00:01:23] Jason: Yeah.

[00:01:24] Caroline: Can we stop talking about working...?

[00:01:25] Jason: Oh, we have at least 100 episodes about this in our podcast.

[00:01:28] Caroline: I think part of it is also maybe that when we talk to people in real life, like when we meet new friends or when we are just interacting socially with people, one of the very first things that they ask us about when they find out that we work together is, what's it like working together?

[00:01:42] Jason: How is this possible?

[00:01:42] Caroline: Yeah. So I feel like we're talking about it all the time, but I'm realizing now that is in real life, where we don't have microphones.

[00:01:49] Jason: Yes. Just to give you a quick little heads up on what we're going to chat about before we get into your comments you want to make about my 2024 adventures in the kitchen.

[00:01:57] Caroline: Yes.

[00:01:57] Jason: We're going to talk about having more discussions than you need in a partnership, whether this is you working with a freelancer or with your spouse or just someone else.

[00:02:04] Caroline: I do believe that what we talk about in this episode isn't just transferable to, like, working with a spouse or a partner. I think it's also working with a collaborator or a business partner. So.

[00:02:14] Jason: Navigating perfectionism on different scales, communicating during rough patches, which we... I mean, rough is a very subjective word to use, but I think for us, we would call this a rough patch. And we'll talk more about that. And then recommitting to your values to kind of, like, bring it all back together. That's the teaser.

[00:02:34] Caroline: Great job.

[00:02:35] Jason: Thank you so much.

[00:02:35] Caroline: Like, really being in charge of the notes there.

[00:02:37] Jason: Feel free to have your kitchen comments now.

[00:02:39] Caroline: Okay, so Jason has been on a real culinary roll this year, as you all know.

[00:02:45] Jason: Culinary roll, huh?

[00:02:46] Caroline: A roll. A culinary roll. You are a phenomenal cook. You are a phenomenal baker. You are a magician in the kitchen. A magician.

[00:02:55] Jason: First of all, I'm a Mediocre Baker who has upgraded. I've upgraded.

[00:02:58] Caroline: There's no more mediocre about it.

[00:03:00] Jason: Okay, what's the next phase? Because you don't go from mediocre to...

[00:03:04] Caroline: Pretty good.

[00:03:04] Jason: Excellent. Thank you. But pretty good.

[00:03:06] Caroline: You're better than pretty good.

[00:03:07] Jason: I'm pretty good.

[00:03:08] Caroline: No.

[00:03:08] Jason: But I was better than mediocre when I was mediocre.

[00:03:12] Caroline: The scale is tilted. It's fine.

[00:03:13] Jason: That's why when you tell people, if you're like, Jason's, he's pretty good at baking, they're like, oh, my expectations are low.

[00:03:19] Caroline: Okay. So it's a... It's a strategic expectation setting. I understand.

[00:03:22] Jason: Exactly.

[00:03:23] Caroline: You have, this year, traversed a lot of new terrain in the kitchen.

[00:03:27] Jason: I have.

[00:03:27] Caroline: You have. You really kicked off the year with a Creami obsession. So this is, like, ice cream recipe thing, which I think you've really perfected a few recipes.

[00:03:37] Jason: I would like to just take a moment to say that on this podcast, it was brought up live in a recording that I was going to purchase this ice cream making machine, which two years ago went viral.

[00:03:47] Caroline: There was doubt.

[00:03:48] Jason: There was doubt in the house. Not going to point any fingers, because this episode's about partnerships and working together.

[00:03:52] Caroline: This is when I really miss Plax because I used to be able to be like...

[00:03:55] Jason: Yeah, our dog who passed, but we had 13 and a half good years where you could point at him and blame it at him.

[00:03:59] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:03:59] Jason: Yes. Especially farts.

[00:04:02] Caroline: Okay. It was mostly him.

[00:04:03] Jason: It was 100%. But this, the Ninja Creami has worked out well. Like, if I was to give my three month review video, which we don't create those things, I would say 100%. I use this thing five out of seven days of the week. I am even making my own cashew milk as, like, the base for all these, because we don't drink dairy milk.

[00:04:20] Caroline: That's not something a pretty good person would do.

[00:04:23] Jason: That is a pretty good person would do.

[00:04:24] Caroline: No, it's something...

[00:04:25] Jason: Under sell it. Yeah.

[00:04:27] Caroline: I forgot. I forgot again. The scale is tilted.

[00:04:30] Jason: So anyway, that has gone very well. I just wanted to interject and say, like, a little... 

[00:04:32] Caroline: Please. Please interject. That's actually the... 

[00:04:33] Jason: Point of this?

[00:04:36] Caroline: That's the point of this. So we had. We had the Creami phase and that...

[00:04:39] Jason: Which we're still... We're still doing.

[00:04:41] Caroline: We're still in it.

[00:04:41] Jason: I just want to make sure everyone knows.

[00:04:42] Caroline: But I just mean, like, in terms of, like, a new onboarding into... Okay? 

[00:04:43] Jason: We have onboarded Creami into our family. 

[00:04:47] Caroline: We had Creami onboarded. Okay. And then. And then you got on a little bit of a sourdough pizza kick.

[00:04:55] Jason: Yes.

[00:04:56] Caroline: Okay. Then we had a sourdough pizza onboarding. Jason bought, like, a pizza ceramic stone for the oven. He did not buy the thousands of dollars of pizza oven. I felt like that was a real win.

[00:05:04] Jason: Hey, guys, I tried. 

[00:05:05] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:05:05] Jason: I really tried.

[00:05:06] Caroline: That was a real win for those of us who were trying to keep the hobbies to a minimum.

[00:05:08] Jason: I was like, it's only €3000. And she was like, can you say that again?

[00:05:12] Caroline: The most expensive hobbies of anyone you've met. And then that was delicious. I mean, some of the best pizza I've ever had in my life. Now, I did come to you in sort of a, like, family meeting style and was like, hey, I love your pizza. As a person who is kind of gluten intolerant and, like, kind of pushes the boundaries of that, I do feel like maybe this is sabotaging some of my own health and well being goals.

[00:05:35] Jason: Right.

[00:05:35] Caroline: So I think we need to pull back on the pizza. And you're like, maybe you need to pull back on the pizza.

[00:05:39] Jason: Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:40] Caroline: But you've done a very good job of, like... 

[00:05:42] Jason: So maybe this weekend is pizza again?

[00:05:44] Caroline: Okay.

[00:05:45] Jason: Okay.

[00:05:45] Caroline: Then that was the pizza onboarding. Then you got on a real bagel, like, baking kind of kick. You had some new... Oh, then you got on, like, that little protein treat kick.

[00:05:55] Jason: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've been really trying to find. We all see this. If you're on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, you see these recipes where it's like, I made protein based cookie dough, and, mmm, it's so good. And then I would try to make that at home, and I wanted to just throw in the garbage. It was too terrible.

[00:06:09] Caroline: Yeah, those people are just trying to sell you protein powder, and they're lying.

[00:06:13] Jason: But I will say that I have found a couple of them, and I have an Apple note going where I've probably tried 20 or 30 of these recipes, 19 of them are absolute trash. But I have found one that is pretty good. And recently, I think I found a second one, which is the chickpea cookie dough.

[00:06:28] Caroline: It is chickpea cookie dough.

[00:06:28] Jason: Which, when you say those two words together, you think, I'm not gonna eat that.

[00:06:32] Caroline: No. You think that is definitely a fitness influencer trying to lie to you. This is the one anomaly. This is the exception to the rules.

[00:06:37] Jason: It actually. It's not like cookie dough, cookie dough, but it is like a good little treat you can grab a spoonful of and not feel terrible.

[00:06:43] Caroline: So then you went through that phase. That's still going as well. You're juggling multiple.

[00:06:47] Jason: This is why I can't, like, learn Framer or, like, learn how to code or, like, get advanced knowledge in Portuguese language speaking.

[00:06:55] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:06:55] Jason: Is because that's where all my time goes.

[00:06:57] Caroline: I know. It's called a hobby.

[00:06:59] Jason: Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:59] Caroline: And then finally.

[00:07:01] Jason: The newest family addition.

[00:07:03] Caroline: The newest family addition. Jason, just ye... Was that yesterday? For the first time...

[00:07:08] Jason: It was two days ago. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:10] Caroline: Well, he bought a stand mixer.

[00:07:11] Jason: Uh huh. Yeah.

[00:07:13] Caroline: Which I thought forever was just called a standing mixer.

[00:07:15] Jason: Yes.

[00:07:15] Caroline: And then you started calling it a standing mixer to make fun of me. But then I started to feel like maybe you didn't. You had forgotten that it's actually stand mixer.

[00:07:22] Jason: Yeah.

[00:07:22] Caroline: And then those of you who have heard the episode will remember. Then we play the Stan?

[00:07:26] Jason: Stan?

[00:07:26] Caroline: Stand bit game, which is stupid and not funny, but we do it. And so Jason bought a stand mixer, and he made brioche.

[00:07:37] Jason: So I want to say I held out.

[00:07:40] Caroline: No, it was braided brioche bread.

[00:07:45] Jason: Yeah. Platted, as we call it.

[00:07:47] Caroline: As we call it. And when I tell you that this is the most delicious bread, I say that about every bread he makes. This was the most delicious bread. I just had some this morning. I do think it's maybe you poisoning me a little bit with, like, maybe so, like, you know, but I just want to say on record, like, I'm okay with it. So, like, don't. You know, like, cops don't come for him. Like...

[00:08:08] Jason: Oh, yeah.

[00:08:09] Caroline: If he's, like, slowly poisoning with gluten, like, over time for the next 20 years. Like, I'm okay with it.

[00:08:13] Jason: Isn't it, like, kind of good, though? 

[00:08:15] Caroline: Yeah. 

[00:08:15] Jason: Like, very tasty.

[00:08:16] Caroline: Like, I like it. 

[00:08:16] Jason: Yeah. I will say I did not have intentions of buying a stand mixer. I've talked about this on the podcast before. I just was going to keep kneading bread by hand, and, like, it's fine. You don't need to buy it. But then I logged into my Venmo account. And I had not been into my Venmo account, like, a year and a half because I had to pay someone, like, $50 for something. And sitting there staring me in the face was 600 random dollars that have just.

[00:08:38] Caroline: Have you ever found money in, like, your Paypal account or your Venmo account or something because you just don't log into it?

[00:08:42] Jason: And I know that is just, like, a very, like, privileged thing to have happen, but, like, it was a surprise to me, too, y'all. Like, I did not assume that that money was in there, nor did I assume logging in there would find. I would find a new. So I was like, hey, this is money that I didn't know existed. This is the price of the Swedish stand mixer that makes bread. It's, like, actually, like, a bread focused one. So anyway, I bought it. It showed up. Uh, and I decided, well, if I'm going to go for it on my first one, I'm going to make brioche, because I've never made brioche before. I've never even looked at a brioche recipe. All I know about brioche is it's delicious. And also, the majority of the recipe is eggs and butter, so, like, can't be bad. So, anyway, I put together the brioche recipe using my standing mixer, and it was... It was a very weird process. Like, I just had never done it before, so I just felt, I was like...

[00:09:25] Caroline: You were in there for a long time.

[00:09:26] Jason: I know. And it was just working really hard, and it was doing stuff, and, like, the bread wasn't coming together well. And then, like, by the end of it, I was like, okay, well, this is just gonna sit overnight, so we'll see what happens. And the next day, I was working with it. It was kind of weird. I was like, I don't know how this is gonna go. But then, like, I, like, let it proof for the baking, and I turned half the batch into a platted loaf, which I'd never done that. I had just watched, like, seven videos to learn how to braid the bread. It was so hard for my brain to figure that out.

[00:09:49] Caroline: Jason, would you ever go...? For real, for real, for real. Would you ever go on, like, what's the American equivalent of British Baking?

[00:09:55] Jason: Well, we live in Europe now. I could go on Great British Baking.

[00:09:58] Caroline: Oh, you could be the American on Great British Baking.

[00:09:59] Jason: Top of the morning to, yeah, I'm from Wales.

[00:10:02] Caroline: I'm so embarrassed. I'm so sorry to all of our listeners. Don't do that.

[00:10:08] Jason: Okay. That's not me.

[00:10:10] Caroline: But, like, would you ever go on that show or, like, apply for it? Would you ever apply for it?

[00:10:14] Jason: I don't think so.

[00:10:15] Caroline: Why?

[00:10:15] Jason: I think, like, if... If, like, a family member, that's you, like, applied for me, I would entertain it, but I would never do it myself.

[00:10:23] Caroline: Okay.

[00:10:24] Jason: Yeah.

[00:10:24] Caroline: Good to know.

[00:10:24] Jason: But anyway, the point is, to finish that off, I did half the batch with platted bread, and then I did half the batch of cinnamon rolls. So brioche cinnamon rolls. Oh, my heavens.

[00:10:34] Caroline: Oh, boy.

[00:10:35] Jason: This is very good. So, anyway, that was ten minutes of rambling nonsense about my baking adventures, but I just wanted to let everybody know that Caroline has approved of my title going from Mediocre Baker to Pretty Good Baker.

[00:10:46] Caroline: Pretty good.

[00:10:46] Jason: And now I can make more stuff.

[00:10:47] Caroline: You kind of have to say it like that, though. Like, pretty good.

[00:10:48] Jason: Pretty good.

[00:10:48] Caroline: Pretty good.

[00:10:49] Jason: All right, let's get back to the actual topic of this episode. If you've still hung around through all of that, then you are a true cinnamon roller, and we love you, and we're here to share about our relationship.

[00:10:59] Caroline: Relationshit. Am I right?

[00:11:01] Jason: No.

[00:11:02] Caroline: I'm just kidding.

[00:11:03] Jason: Okay, let's start with a recap of our working history, because I think this helps set the table.

[00:11:06] Caroline: Context.

[00:11:07] Jason: Yeah.

[00:11:07] Caroline: Love it.

[00:11:07] Jason: So we... You started, uh... We started working together in 2010 when I had my crazy IWearYourShirt social media agency business, and we did that for three years. So you worked for me during that time, and they're kind of, like, very clear roles in that. I was running the company.

[00:11:21] Caroline: Yes.

[00:11:22] Jason: You were working for me. So it's like you kind of know where you are, and I think you did a very good job of just being like, hey, you're in charge. I'm just gonna work on this.

[00:11:29] Caroline: Well, that's what I was going to say. You're kind of, like, skating over it. But I just want to be very clear. I was the one who came to you and was like... Like, I don't want people to listen to this and be like, whoa. Like, weird power dynamic. I came to you and was like, hey, I think it's better if you're kind of, like, the head chef and I'm the sous chef. I'm happy. First of all, it was, like, my second, well, my third job out of college, and I had never been any... I'd never done anything entrepreneurial before. I was kind of coming from the corporate world, so I had a lot to learn in terms of how to work for yourself, even though I was kind of working for you, but I was like, hey, I think it's better if you're running the company. You let me know where I can support you. I'll kind of be your right hand gal, and that's what we'll do. And so that worked well.

[00:12:07] Jason: Yeah. And I was like, hey, I'll get us into $100,000 in debt, and then let's work this off for, like, many years after.

[00:12:12] Caroline: And I was like...

[00:12:13] Jason: Deal?

[00:12:13] Caroline: Definitely.

[00:12:13] Jason: Good plan.

[00:12:14] Caroline: Absolutely.

[00:12:15] Jason: Yeah. So then we worked kind of side by side. So when that business finished in 2013, you started Made Vibrant and kind of went on your own journey. And... But we literally worked side by side in an office. And so I had my JasonDoesStuff brand. You had your Made Vibrant brand. And we kind of just built digital products, you know, working side by side. And there wasn't a lot of overlap, although sometimes we would come together for, like, a little bundle or something. But that was really, like, you know, Batman and Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman working next to each other.

[00:12:42] Caroline: Yes. And I think those years were very important because I needed to carve out my own identity and self image as my own entrepreneur. Like, I can do this. I can come up with ideas. I can grow my own business. Of course, you were there for brainstorming and helping and all of that, but I definitely feel like I gained my own self confidence in terms of, like, I have my own way of doing things. I learned a lot about business strategy. I really got my kind of entrepreneurial chops, so to speak.

[00:13:10] Jason: Then after that, it took six months, but I finally convinced you in 2018 for us to combine those businesses into WAIM. So we have been running WAIM since 2018 and been really working together nonstop during that time. And then for Teachery, the little bit of context there, we've talked about Teachery a bit here to start the year, and we will continue to talk more about it because it is our main focus right now. But you basically, you know, you were kind of always just on the side of Teachery where you were building courses and, like, you would kind of give some feedback on things. But, like, I was basically running it full time. In 2020, you redesigned the entire application, taught yourself how to be a UI designer. Like, I taught myself how to make delicious brioche and...

[00:13:50] Caroline: Rebranded it.

[00:13:51] Jason: Rebranded it, and then kind of between 2020 and 2023, you didn't really do a ton on Teachery stuff.

[00:13:57] Caroline: Yes, because, 2021, I was still healing from anxiety. 2022, we were traveling, which there was no room. And then, yeah, so then 2023 is when I really was like, we're running both of these businesses as equal partners.

[00:14:12] Jason: Exactly. So that's just the context of us working together and kind of how that has changed over time. First kind of topic I wanted to touch on. I'm putting the heading here, More discussions equals less assumptions.

[00:14:26] Caroline: Yes. So I'll just be totally honest, too. This podcast is coming on the heels of because I think we'll probably refer to it. But we basically started off this week with two big kind of conversations that came out of meetings we were having about Teachery. Well, actually, the first one was like a content meeting, but the second one was about Teachery. And, you know, in those discussions, I'm not gonna say they went badly, but for us...

[00:14:51] Jason: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Caroline: For what we're used to, they got a lot more, I would say, adversarial than we are used to having in those relationships. Now, let me set the stage. For us, personally, and again, this isn't like a judgment on how you run your relationship. Like, we don't yell, we don't, like, get... We don't name call.

[00:15:08] Jason: We don't swear at each other.

[00:15:10] Caroline: We don't swear at each other. I did drop a couple of f bombs that you made very... Not at you, but, like, you made it very clear that, like, that... That level of... 

[00:15:18] Jason: You crossed the line. And that's like, we got to come back together and be like, hey, what's going on here? You know, like, if we're... If we're crossing lines, we gotta reassess and be like, something's up.

[00:15:25] Caroline: So we kind of have some rules of engagement that we have always had for our relationship now. But I will say that those conversations, when I say they got adversarial, I just mean there's... There's arguments. There is, like...

[00:15:38] Jason: Tension.

[00:15:39] Caroline: Tension. There's clearly, you know, there's defending your own point. There's like, well, that hurts my feelings because of this. Or, you know, going both ways. And so we worked through that as we always do, but we came out of it, and we were like, you know, I think we need to talk about this. Like, I think we just need to share the real... The realities of what it's like to work with your spouse when it's not going well. Because the truth is, we do work really well together. We have worked really well together for many, many years. But whenever we go through these kind of transition phases, that's when we tend to have more arguments and when we need to reset and refigure things out. And so we just felt like, let's just be real. Let's get on the podcast. Let's talk about what we learned through those conversations and so on this first point, like you were saying, more discussions equals less assumptions. I think a big takeaway that we learned from some of those, the more tense moments in those conversations was that we were both making a lot of assumptions and we hadn't been communicating about maybe, like, the bigger picture enough.

[00:16:41] Jason: Yeah. And I think this also relates to any of you listening this. Like, you might not work with your spouse, I know some of you listening do, but you probably work with freelancers or you work with other business partners or you just interact with other people. And so I'm hoping that maybe some of these things actually are applicable in a lot of this. And, and one of those is just this, this thing that we have learned, that the longer we go between, like, really quick communication, chats, discussions, meetings, assumptions pile up. And so it may seem like, oh, you know, I don't want to have to talk to this freelancer every single day. Like, I just give them their work. It feels like micromanaging. What happens is that, like, if you're not really crystal clear on the same page with things, assumptions pile up. And I think that's what happens with us is sometimes when we're in a busy season, which I would say we are in now, and we try not to be in busy seasons very often, but it's just the reality of what we're trying to do, juggling two businesses, we have to have more chats than we ever normally would.

[00:17:33] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:17:33] Jason: So, you know, for us that... that really means, like, every single day, just trying to iron out the details of what both of us are doing so that neither of us are going, wait, hold on. I assumed you were doing this because we talked about it two weeks ago. It's like, whoa, whoa. Everything changed last week because we decided to do x. And so it's really helpful to get on the same page every day, even if it's just a small, like, five minute, like, hey, what? Just a reminder, like, what are we both doing today?

[00:17:55] Caroline: Yeah. And I think it's not just about what are you working on? Although that's a really big part of it. But it's also, like, what general, like, operating principles are you working from in terms of interpersonal dynamics? So a more concrete example would be in one of these discussions that we had this week, you know, it became clear that you kind of brought up this idea of, hey, something I was intentionally trying to do this year, and you can interrupt me if I'm misrepresenting what you said, but maybe it's a good practice for me to try to repeat it back to you.

[00:18:28] Jason: Sure.

[00:18:28] Caroline: But you kind of said, like, hey, something I was really trying to work on this year was, and this was based on some of the more tense discussions we had had last year was, like, this year, I was trying to pull back some of my more, like, controlling tendencies to kind of, like, let you take the reins, because I think I had communicated to you last year that sometimes when we would have these, like, little strategy debates or whatever about decisions we wanted to make in the business, sometimes I would feel a little bit like, you know, I wasn't being... my opinion or my strategic objective, like, wasn't being fully, like, respected, and it was kind of being kind of, like, run over or whatever. And so you, in your defense, like, you took that comment, and you said, I'm gonna try to work on this, but your way of working on it was like, this year, I'm gonna pull back, and I'm gonna let her take the lead in some of these strategic decisions. And I didn't know that you had been bringing that intention to every one of our meetings. And what that was doing was, that was not what I wanted. What I wanted was, in those discussions, I wanted a full partnership where just my, like, suggestions were being heard and kind of integrated into whatever lens you were bringing to the table so that we could come to a decision together. So it was like, one of those things where I was sort of, like, the general thought was, hey, I don't feel like my suggestions are being fully, like, heard here. And so your, like, the way you received that was like, okay, then I'll just let you be fully heard, and you take the charge. But really, what I wanted was, like, a 50 50 partner.

[00:19:58] Jason: Yeah. And I think that's just a perfect example of. It's just difficult to know what exactly the other person wants to. And sometimes you don't know what you want until you get given a version of something. You're like, oh, that's not what I wanted. But I didn't know what I wanted. And so I think, for me, what I've realized over the years, especially with Teachery, like, a lot of this is stemming from working together on Teachery, is that, like, I've been in charge of that business. I've made every decision in that business. And so, as we've started to work together, I think even yourself default subconsciously or consciously, has been like, okay, but, like, Jason, make the final decision, you know? And I'm not saying that you've necessarily said that. But I think maybe it just happens naturally where we'll be talking about some, be like, okay, well, but, like, what do you want to do here? And so I think what I was really trying to do to start this year was, like, let me stop being the, like, end of things and just let you. If you have an idea, I'm not even going to, like, respond in a way that's in any way what I think we should do. I just want to be like, okay, great. That's your idea. You feel strongly about it, let's move forward with it.

[00:20:54] Caroline: Right. But then in doing that, I end up kind of feeling, like, abandoned in the partnership. Right. I end up feeling like, oh, it's being put all on my shoulders, and I don't like that feeling. Like, I like running this business with another person for that reason that we kind of, like, share the load. And so that's a perfect example of, like, if we're both operating on different assumptions there that are not being spoken out loud, then you can get yourself into some hot water where, like, you think you're doing something I want. It's actually not what I want. So we have to revisit. And so I think over communicating and saying, hey, this is what I was trying to do. And me going, oh, well, that's not actually, it doesn't make me feel that way of your intention and going, okay, great, then let's reassess. And you did the perfect thing, which is, okay, well, then show me, how do you want me to show up in those conversations? Like, what level of, you know, how do you want, when we are at an impasse and we both have ideas about how to move forward, how does that conversation play out in your mind in an ideal scenario?

[00:21:57] Jason: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Caroline: And sometimes you really have to, like, be very concrete.

[00:22:01] Jason: Exactly.

[00:22:01] Caroline: Here's how I would love this conversation to go.

[00:22:04] Jason: 100%. And what I was gonna say to make this applicable for folks listening to this who don't work with their significant other, but maybe you work with freelancers, is if you're... If you're looking to have that person do things that are maybe out of the scope of what they you've hired them for. So let me just give a concrete example. You have hired a short form video creator to help you create reels or TikToks or YouTube shorts. But one thing you want them to do, but you haven't necessarily said it, but maybe you've talked about it slightly in meetings, is like, I wish they would show me, like, what the trending stuff is so I could learn, like, how we should adapt what's going on? And in your mind, you've thought that, and then you've now expected them to do that.

[00:22:42] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:22:42] Jason: Because you've... You've talked about it, but it has not been set as, like, an expectation for them to do. And so I think these are the moments where you have to look within yourself to be like, hold on. What expectations am I setting? What assumptions am I making that have actually not been made clear?

[00:22:56] Caroline: Yes.

[00:22:56] Jason: And by making those things clear in a timely manner, you don't have these gaps of time where, like, two weeks go by and you're like, uh, I hired Frank to do these YouTube shorts, and he's not sending me any of the trending ones. It's like, well, hold on. You talked about that in a meeting, but it wasn't ever a deliverable that you both agreed would be done in x timeline.

[00:23:14] Caroline: Totally.

[00:23:14] Jason: So I think if you're listening to this, like, I think that's just, like, the first really good takeaway is anything that you're thinking about that you're assuming someone else is doing. Figure out how you can have more discussions about it and create better expectations for both of you to understand. That's what you want.

[00:23:29] Caroline: Yep. And another thing I wanted to bring up is not just about communicating expectations, but also about communicating your own intentions. So not what you expect other people are doing to you, but what you are bringing to the table. This is something that we've learned as well. And the example we just gave earlier was a perfect example of this, where you were, like, in your mind, you were like, 2024 is going to be the year that I let Caroline, like, you know, that I be more intentional about Caroline being able to take the lead. And I'm doing that because, you know, we've talked about this, and I care about our relationship. So that's what I'm working on internally. I have no idea that's going on.

[00:24:04] Jason: Right.

[00:24:05] Caroline: And this more so happens on my behalf where, like, I wake up every day and I set intentions for mentally how I'm gonna handle the day. So I'll... This is just how I operate. So I'll be like, okay, I've noticed I've been really rushing through things lately. So I'll be like, today I'm gonna focus on patience. I'm gonna focus on being present and in the moment. Like, I'm just a very mindful person. So I always start the day with, like, or most often, it's like, a relationship thing. Like, Jason's having to remind me a lot recently of little things to do around the house because he's a lot better at that than I am. My intention today is to really try to be mindful of those things so that I can show him through my actions that I care about our relationship and he doesn't have to tell me to do something twice, right? I'm living that reality in my mind without communicating that to you. And I think most people in relationships have this, like, what gets us into trouble is going like, okay, but if I set that intention and I do the things without him having to remind me, like, shouldn't he notice?

[00:25:03] Jason: Exactly.

[00:25:04] Caroline: It's very hard to notice things that are absent. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's like, if you're used to having to remind me and suddenly you don't have to remind me anymore, that's not going to be a cue to your brain to be like, wow, she's really putting a lot of intention. You're just going to be like, that's not. I don't have to remind her, you know, so you're not even thinking about it. And so I realized a few times that I would come to the table with intentions, or I would try to be, like, doing something mindset wise, and I would expect that you would, like, somehow notice. And you're like, how would I know that? How would I know you're doing that?

[00:25:35] Jason: And I think the really important thing there is, as the person who's putting in the extra effort, it's important to relay that to your partner or to someone else to just be like, hey, I just want you to notice this. You know, like, I am putting in this extra effort. And so I'm not necessarily looking for praise. Like, that's not it. It's just more, I just want you to notice that I'm doing this. It's like, oh, okay, great. Like, that tells me, as the person who, you know, maybe doesn't notice things so well, that, okay, I'll pay attention to this more because I wasn't paying attention to it. I was more just, like, moving on about my day.

[00:26:07] Caroline: Definitely. So I think that has helped us a ton, is because you and I both, and I think what makes our relationship work is that we're both always trying to work on ourselves, but you want to also be recognized for that effort that you're putting in. And so sometimes the simple answer there is just, like, be honest about what you're doing.

[00:26:25] Jason: Yeah, totally. Okay. A couple tactical things just on the more discussions, less assumptions kind of part that we're in here. Number one, in a busy season, daily morning meetings and end of day meetings are really helpful. And so we find that, I mean, this is... It only has to take five to ten minutes for both, but it's really helps to get on the same page because even if you set a plan of action a week ago, things can change every single day. And it just as helpful to move forward.

[00:26:52] Caroline: And it makes the day, the next day smoother.

[00:26:54] Jason: Exactly. On Sundays or Mondays, we try and set the plan for the week, and then we adjust as necessary throughout. One of the things that we have learned is, like, it's great that previous us set a plan, but current us, present us has to deal with the realities of life and things happening. So if something interrupts us, if something pops up, maybe a family issue or just a life thing, we have to do.

[00:27:15] Caroline: If we have a tense discussion before we're supposed to podcast on Tuesdays, we move that recording.

[00:27:22] Jason: Yeah, we don't push through just because that was on our calendar.

[00:27:25] Caroline: Because ain't nobody want to listen to a podcast where they are in the middle of a therapy session.

[00:27:30] Jason: Exactly. And then we really try to be vocal about what we're individually working on and ways that we are being intentional so that a person can recognize the mental effort. That was what you were just talking about.

[00:27:40] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:27:40] Jason: But I think even just, like, letting the other person know, especially when you're feeling that, because it really, really helps. So those three tactical things, um, you know, definitely have helped us and continue to help us all the time. So it's, I think it's worth repeating those often.

[00:27:53] Caroline: Yes. Um, just... I wanted to take a moment here. I don't think we said this at the top of the episode. We are not relationship experts.

[00:28:00] Jason: Oh, I'm pretty good at relationships.

[00:28:02] Caroline: We are not saying this is what you should do in your relationship.

[00:28:05] Jason: Right.

[00:28:05] Caroline: I just want to be very clear, because I see lots of people online trying to be relationship experts, and I think that is a dangerous little niche to carve out for yourself.

[00:28:12] Jason: But you can buy our relationship book for $7,000.

[00:28:16] Caroline: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Always. So, yeah, I just wanted to throw that caveat in there. It's not like we're saying that we know everything, just sharing what the real traversing of these emotional situations is like.

[00:28:27] Jason: Yeah. You want to talk about some triggers and hotspots? Just nice, little easy, you know, waters to wade into here?

[00:28:34] Caroline: Yeah. So that this was another very big part of our discussions this week was just like, some... inadvertently, you press buttons that you don't mean to press in bringing up topics that might be triggers for your partner. You might say something in a certain way that gets received very poorly. And I think part of recognizing that in the moment is, like, is just taking accountability for the fact that, like, yes, it's not your responsibility. Like, if I say, if I give you a piece of critical feedback and you take it really poorly because it reminds you of, you know, deep wounds that you have around a certain topic, maybe your reaction to that is, like, more... is, like, to be more hurt than I would imagine, right? And I think a lot of people in the moment could be like, well, it's not my responsibility to, like, you know, kind of, like, coddle your wounds, and, like, I didn't say that a certain way. You received it a certain way. Right, right. However, what... What the discussions this week have really reminded me is, like, that might be true. Like, you might in the moment be like, well, it's not my responsibility to, like, say things in a certain way to make you comfortable at every moment. That's fine, but take a step back and go, okay, but the important thing here is my partner was hurt by that thing that I said, whether I intended for that feedback to be received that way or not, whether I think that the reaction is proportionate or not, my partner has showed me that this is a trigger for them, that this is a, like, you know, a delicate subject for them. And, of course, it's their responsibility to acknowledge that and kind of work through that on their own time. But it's also my... My... I wouldn't even say responsibility. It's also my desire as a person who loves you to never make you feel that hurt.

[00:30:27] Jason: Yeah. And not to get into the specific example here that led to this, but the point that I made to you when we were kind of in this little muddy patch was like, I just want you to know that, and again, this is, like, an intentional thing that I do that I don't tell you that I do. So how would you know that I do it?

[00:30:43] Caroline: Right.

[00:30:43] Jason: Which is like, I know some of your triggers and hotspots, and I avoid them when we're in conversations. Or I avoid them even when we're just having not... not even, like, a, uh, back and forth. It's more of like a, hey, we're in a planning meeting. And, like, um, you know, if there was just, like, a loose example, like a deadline that was set that was missed.

[00:30:59] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:30:59] Jason: I'm not going to, like, say that it was missed. I'm just going to ask when's the new deadline? Like, what's the new thing? Because I know that I could walk myself into a troubling situation because that could be a trigger. Not necessarily saying it is, just giving as an example. But I think the point there that I was trying to make in our discussion that we were having was like, hey, maybe it's helpful if you know that, like, I actually do this. Like, I actually intentionally don't say things in certain ways because I know that it would negatively affect this conversation and it would make you feel bad.

[00:31:30] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:31:30] Jason: Like, and even though if it is the truth and it is the actual, like, the reality of what we're going through, it's not important for me to say that thing in that way just to get the point across. Just to, like, make sure that, you know, hey, you know, you said this and, like, now you're not doing it. And so, yeah, I think you have this Esther Perel quote that kind of like acknowledges this as well?

[00:31:51] Caroline: Yeah. The quote that I was referring to is because I think a lot of times in personal growth arenas, I have this idea in my head. Sorry, keyword strong, because I did have a thought and I just don't want to lose it. But going back to the quote, yes, I think sometimes in my own personal growth work, I can sometimes get in this place where I'm like, this should be able to be solved, you know, like there should be some new version that we're getting to where we're not running into this problem again. So triggers is like a perfect example where I'm like, well, if that's like a wound or like a trigger, shouldn't we like heal that completely so that it never triggers you again? And the older I get, the more I'm realizing some things I don't think are capable of ever going away.

[00:32:35] Jason: I think they're healable. But there's still a scar there.

[00:32:38] Caroline: Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, they're healable in that they don't, you know, trigger your nervous system in the same way. Like you can manage them better. But Esther Perel's quote that she says is like, this isn't a problem to solve. It's a dichotomy to manage. And meaning, like, you're never going to arrive at this, like, perfect solution of finding these things in perfect balance. You just have to always kind of be managing the juxtaposition of those things. And I think that that is our triggers playing off of each other. Like sometimes I think there's some type of magical solve that we're gonna get to where those things never play off of each other anymore. And I don't think that that's true. I think we just have to manage that dichotomy. And I think there's a level of acceptance and relief that comes when you kind of recognize that because no longer do you feel like you're kind of, like, constantly coming up against the same issues and that that somehow is a bad thing. Like, that's okay. We're two separate human beings. We're two separate people, and we're never meant to fit together, you know, perfectly, because then we would become the same person.

[00:33:44] Jason: Yeah.

[00:33:45] Caroline: And so it's about managing that. It's about balancing the things that we bring to the table. It's about being aware of each other's triggers. Like, to me, that becomes a more healthy dynamic.

[00:33:54] Jason: Yeah.

[00:33:55] Caroline: But going back to my keyword, what I was saying is strong. I think what I've also learned about the whole triggers thing is, when you are maybe the more emotionally sensitive person in a relationship...

[00:34:07] Jason: You can also say in tune if you want.

[00:34:09] Caroline: In tune? What did I say?

[00:34:10] Jason: No, no, you said more emotionally sensitive. But I can... But I'm saying you can also... You have permission. No, no, you have permission. I'm telling you to say in tune because I'm not as emotionally in tune. So it's just like...

[00:34:21] Caroline: No, but I really did mean sensitive.

[00:34:22] Jason: Yeah, no.

[00:34:22] Caroline: But yes, I did mean sensitive because when you are the more sensitive person, I think you can sometimes take for granted that you can hurt the other person's feelings. Like, you're a very emotionally strong person. It takes a lot to hurt your feelings. You do not get triggered easily. We laugh about you being an unemotional robot. But sometimes in that, and you being very even keeled, it's easy for me to forget that I do have the ability to hurt your feelings, that I know you so intimately and deeply, that I'm actually probably the only person who can hurt your feelings.

[00:34:55] Jason: Probably, yeah.

[00:34:55] Caroline: And so I take that responsibility really seriously, and I forget about it sometimes.

[00:35:01] Jason: With great power comes great responsibility.

[00:35:03] Caroline: I'm basically...?

[00:35:03] Jason: Uncle Ben. 

[00:35:04] Caroline: Spiderman?

[00:35:04] Jason: Uncle Ben.

[00:35:05] Caroline: Cool, cool, cool. So I think that is an aha moment that I just had in this conversation that I didn't realize yesterday is 'cause I have been evaluating my own behavior and going like, I do see your things that you pointed out to me yesterday about how I could have said things better or I could have been less critical. And I was asking myself, why did I do that? Like, I'm not mean spirited. I'm not harsh. I'm not any of those things. Like, why would I have said something that could be taken so deeply as criticism? And I think it's because I am less careful with the way and the tone that I use because I take for granted the fact that I think you're impenetrable in some way. And that was a big wake up call for me of going, no, like, again, with great power comes a great responsibility. Like, you're actually not impenetrable. I have the ability to poke at those wounds, and so I need to be very mindful of not doing that.

[00:36:00] Jason: Yeah. And I just think that's, that's part of being in a relationship, is, is you learn over time what the triggers are, what the hotspots are, and it's your job to navigate those things. And going back to this Esther Perel quote, I'm sorry I said her name incorrectly because her name is difficult for me to say. The metaphor that it made me think about. And I've actually only seen this in Europe. And maybe because I just didn't pay attention to seeing it in the US. Coming out of grocery stores, have you noticed this? You'll see a couple. It doesn't have to even be a couple. It could be like a mother and a daughter or something like that. They have like one big tote bag, but they're both carrying one strap on each side?

[00:36:35] Caroline: No, I haven't noticed this.

[00:36:36] Jason: I never saw this happen in the US. And maybe it's just because totes weren't really a big thing, but here they're such a big thing. And I've noticed this a lot. And so the metaphor here for me is like, our relationship and the problems in it, we're not necessarily going to fix them, but it's about us carrying both of them together with one strap each.

[00:36:55] Caroline: I love that.

[00:36:55] Jason: And so I think about this in, in the way that we've kind of, like, gone through this week together is like, it'd be very easy. And I think a lot of times in relationships, it's like I'll just grab the tote myself and carry it off and like...

[00:37:06] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:37:06] Jason: I'll deal with it. And it's like, no, hey, grab the handle. I'll grab the handle. We will figure this out together. And I think that's what makes relationships last.

[00:37:12] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:37:13] Jason: You know, grant... You know, buy our book, $7,000. Um, but I think that that's what you see in a lot of relationships that fail is one person just says, fine, I'll just grab the totes and then they just walk off.

[00:37:24] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:37:24] Jason: And it kind of feels like there was some resolution because maybe one person just said, like, I'm just going to deal with this myself.

[00:37:30] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:37:30] Jason: As opposed to being like, no, like, let's both grab these handles. Let's both carry this. Like, this is something we're going to have to manage forever. We're going to have to carry this bag our entire lives together. We're opting in for that. And that's okay.

[00:37:40] Caroline: Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful metaphor because it's about shared commitment. It's just about not leaving the other person hanging with the tote. It's about saying, like, we made a commitment to carry this load together. And every time that you show up and you engage in a hard conversation with me and you pick up the tote handle, that shows me that you are still here, committed to, like, doing it as a team instead of a solo. And on that note, just to wrap up this whole discussions point, because I do think a lot of it comes down to communication. So I'm glad we're spending a lot of time here. But something I also recognized in our discussions, both of those, like, kind of heated discussions, it's something that I try to do very actively, and I know you do as well, is, and it's probably the hardest part about it, but it's like swallowing your pride and showing up as humbly as you can to hear what the other person is saying.

[00:38:33] Jason: Yeah.

[00:38:34] Caroline: It's like I find that so often, like, our... In hard conversations where someone is maybe giving criticism or is someone is saying like, you know, I wish you didn't show up this way or blah, blah, blah, blah. Our brains do the natural thing of wanting to defend first because we see it so differently, right? Like someone's telling us their perspective and we're like, we feel misunderstood. We feel like, that wasn't my intention. Well, I did x, y, and z because you did x, y, right? Like, our brains want to feel seen. And so we're trying to formulate the defense that we can throw back at the other person and say, well, this is how you're misinterpreting this completely wrong. But that doesn't do anything to make that person who has just shared with you a feeling feel like they're validated and seen. And I have just found that being defensive might... and trying to, like, push your point home and push your perspective home, it might do the short term good feeling of now you feel misunderstood, and so you want to feel seen. And so you might be able to get that person to be like, well, you're interpreting this wrong, right? So that makes you feel protected in the short term, but it never leads to closure in the long term. It never leads to a resolution because both people walk away from the conversation going, feeling misunderstood. And so the only way to end a conversation feeling like both people were seen is by first going out on a limb, swallowing your pride, and saying, what is he really saying to me right now? Without me putting up the defenses about why it's wrong and how that wasn't my intention. It doesn't matter. In this moment, what is he telling me right now? He's telling me he's hurt. He's telling me that, you know, I said something that, that affected him in a negative way. Like, so I just think you and I both really try in those conversations, and it doesn't always work. Like, we sometimes put our defenses up, but we really try to listen. And I think we, something we both try to do as well is, like, we get quiet to let the person go on their tear. Not like, not like in a berating way where someone is just, like, throwing stuff out and blah, blah, blah. But, like, when, when someone is clearly, like, activated and needs to get their perspective out, I do my best to just kind of sit with it and, like, hear the words, even if they're hard to hear of... because what I'm really hearing in that moment is I'm hurt.

[00:40:53] Jason: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. I think that's the full discussion of the discussions section of this. Let's move into. We have three more kind of, like, overarching sections we wanted to talk about. So this one's navigating perfectionism.

[00:41:06] Caroline: Yep. So this was another big revelation for me is I really thought that I had dealt with this, like, perfectionism thing. Like, I really convinced myself that in starting my own business, Made Vibrant, many, many years ago, I had to get over that in order to, like, ship stuff often and write newsletters and put art pieces up every day that weren't perfect. And I really thought that I had gone over that. And what I realized was, you have to relearn lessons when there's new context. And with trying to grow Teachery, I'm being put into all these situations where I'm doing things for the first time. And I do find that your observation of me that I take longer than is necessary in order to do something the quote unquote right way. I do think that there's truth to that. And I appreciate you pointing that out because I do think my perfectionism is getting the better, the better of me in certain areas of our business.

[00:42:04] Jason: Yeah. And so what's really interesting from the person who's looking at this from the... the outside is, in our relationship, I'm the more perfectionist tendency person. So, like...

[00:42:15] Caroline: In certain ways.

[00:42:17] Jason: But I would say, like, on the scales of our lives, like, I'm the one who has more perfectionist tendencies overall. Like, if we were just...

[00:42:23] Caroline: You think so?

[00:42:24] Jason: Yeah, for sure.

[00:42:25] Caroline: But, like, in our physical environment.

[00:42:26] Jason: Yeah, but, yeah, but I... And I think our physical environment takes up more time than our work environment, which is why I would win that award. Just let me have the trophy, damn it.

[00:42:37] Caroline: Okay. You can have the trophy. No, I'm genuinely curious if I am genuinely...

[00:42:41] Jason: Yeah, because think about it. Like, we only work like 8 hours a day. The rest of the time, I know we're sleeping for the other third of that. But, like, I would say that predominantly, like, my perfectionism tendencies outweigh the time that you... You might have them in work 'cause I also have them in work, but not as much.

[00:42:57] Caroline: No, no, that's what I'm saying. You can have the trophy. Oh, my God. I'm not... I'm genuinely asking you. I'm not asking about, like, a time or like, who's more.

[00:43:06] Jason: Yeah.

[00:43:06] Caroline: I'm saying, are you saying that your, your perfectionism shows up less in like a digital sense?

[00:43:13] Jason: Yes.

[00:43:13] Caroline: And more in a physical sense?

[00:43:14] Jason: Exactly.

[00:43:15] Caroline: Exactly. That's what I thought you were saying.

[00:43:16] Jason: But there's more physical sense in life.

[00:43:18] Caroline: Again, you got the trophy. Yeah. Yeah. You got the trophy.

[00:43:20] Jason: Phew, guys, I won it. Thank you so much for being here. I just want to thank my mom. I want to thank The Academy of Perfectionism. So anyway, from the outside looking in, what I wanted to share was we started working together very closely with WAIM, and there was a lot of us both having perfectionism in that. And I think when we worked with the first developer, for those of you who want to go back and read the story at build.wanderingaimfully.com, you can read how that started in 2018 and what we thought would take five weeks, we always joke about this, took five months. And that was really a first kind of like, iteration, I think, for you of realizing, like, oh, when I'm not fully in control of building this thing by myself, like an online course, just as an example, it's going to take way longer because I have to rely on other people. I have lots of other things that I don't like, technologically, I can't do... Communicate, like, all that. And so I got to kind of watch your perfectionism kind of like show up in that time. And then we worked together through it, and I think we did a perfectly fine job. And then I think as WAIM has gone on, you've had so many less perfectionism tendencies because we've gotten better at writing sales pages, better at writing sales emails. We have so much more experience with it. It's just easier. Like, we don't really have perfectionism tendencies in those things. We have strategies we want to execute on, but it's not really that big of a deal. As we started working on Teachery together, especially this year, the first couple months, I've now seen it kind of come back because it's a whole new project. It's a whole new thing that we're wading in this territory of. And what I kind of wanted to bring up in this section is like, as the person who has the trophy of perfectionism in our household, um, what I have learned over the years is that, with digital products, even as a perfectionist, you still get to do all the things. So, like, you can do them, quote unquote, perfectly because you control pretty much almost every single aspect of that.

[00:45:02] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:45:03] Jason: When it comes to building software, like Teachery, you only get to do some things and you only get to do some of those things the way that you want.

[00:45:09] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:45:10] Jason: And, and I know that that's kind of like... 

[00:45:11] Caroline: You're limited by technology. You're limited by developers, you're limited by...

[00:45:15] Jason: It's painting broad strokes. And, like, maybe there are some people who can execute on building software absolutely perfectly, but I think they are the exception, not the norm. And so what we've been talking about a lot is like this perfectionism that you bring to business stuff where you have the trophy is I've just been trying to get you to just kind of loosen how I've loosened.

[00:45:35] Caroline: Totally, and I appreciate that. I think another revelation that I had yesterday was realizing it doesn't... I think, okay, some of it does come from a place of wanting to do it right. And that comes from a place of not wanting to feel inadequate, that comes from a place of not wanting to feel inept, right? Like, that comes from a place of, like, wanting to prove to myself that I'm capable. Okay, that's the root of all that. So that it does come from that. Some of it. But the other part of it, I think, comes from actually a place of efficiency, because what I don't like is having to do something multiple times. And this is what I told you. Like, the reason I take extra long trying to, you know, set up our analytics or trying to do the website is because I know that since we're only two people, I'm not going to be able to, like, in my dream of dreams, we would just be able to, like, get an MVP out and we would iterate and we would do a better homepage three weeks from now. But we're not going to get to that because we have so many things we're trying to do. And so I'm like, okay, if my loop of, like, coming back around on, like, a website, for example, is, like, three years later, I want to do it as right as I possibly can in this moment right now because I don't want to create problems for myself later that I know I'm not going to be able to get to. Does that make sense?

[00:46:48] Jason: Yeah, for sure.

[00:46:48] Caroline: And so I think that helped me also realize, though, that, okay, I understand where that's coming from, but is there a different way to solve that problem? And your point in the conversation the other day was like, cool. Maybe a solution to that problem is would you be more comfortable with doing things, you know, in a more imperfect way if you knew you were going to come back around to them more regularly? Because if so, how about we just build that into the process? How about we have a calendar reminder that every three months we go, how do we want to update the website? Every three months we go through our onboarding emails again and we go, oh, these could be better this way. You know, it's like, build that in the process so that you can move faster.

[00:47:31] Jason: And I think everybody listening to this who has any semblance of perfectionism tendencies, which I think we all do, this is the point that I was trying to make with Caroline, which is, I think, what I've been able to do with Teachery as just the only person kind of running this thing for the past ten years, you know, just as a broad generalization is, like, I would rather have 75% of what I want published and out into the world than 100% that is perfect, not published.

[00:47:57] Caroline: Completely.

[00:47:58] Jason: Because it's never going to be perfect.

[00:47:59] Caroline: Completely.

[00:48:00] Jason: And so I think if you're listening to this, like, that applies to posting on Instagram, it applies to having your email newsletter finally go out, it applies to starting a YouTube channel, your own podcast, building your website. Like, it's better to have 75% completed of a thing. Now, I don't mean like, the footer of your website still has like, you know, mock up copy in it. That's not what I mean. I mean that like, it's 75% to your vision of what you want. It's better to have that out in the world than continuing to push back the deadlines and continuing to be like, well, but it's not perfect yet. I haven't found the perfect email provider. I haven't found the perfect template for this. I haven't figured out how to get my Etsy shop just like so polished so it looks great. It's like, but it doesn't exist yet. And because it doesn't exist, no one can find it, no one can pay you money. And so for us, and this is not just to criticize you, this is, this is both of us and how we're working on Teachery together. I'm just trying to lead with this mindset of like, we are in the scrappy space with this and I posted about this in our Wandering Aimfully Slack and a bunch of people resonated with it. It's like, but acknowledging that is really helpful to be like, we are not in the, we're a perfectly built software that millions of people use and love and everything we do has to be amazing. We are a tiny little software that only a couple hundred people use and that is okay. Now is the best time for us to just like be slinging ideas and it's like they can be not perfect and they could be not set up well. And that's the thing that we have to fight together is like, I'm okay with this email going out and potentially I just, I wrote it too quickly and there's a grammatical error and whatever, that's fine. We will come back to it and fix it.

[00:49:28] Caroline: Well, that's what I was going to say is, with that, what really it comes down to is your ability to tolerate discomfort.

[00:49:36] Jason: Yeah.

[00:49:37] Caroline: And I realized... Two things. Number one, I realized that what I just said about solving the problem by making sure that you come back to it iteratively. I was just thinking to myself, maybe that's why I was able to work through my perfectionism with the newsletters or the art pieces because I always knew the next week there was another chance to get it better. I always knew there was... the next day, it was a chance to put up a new art piece and get it better. With software, sometimes it feels like you create the thing and it's just sort of like published and I don't know when I'm going to come back to it. And so that's what puts so much pressure on that. So my tip there for people is if you're struggling with perfectionism in an aspect of your business, ask yourself if you're only giving, if you're not giving yourself another enough iterations, how can you add more iterations? How can you work that into the process? So that was my just quick takeaway from that. But, yeah, the ability to tolerate discomfort. If you're going to set the intention to do something more imperfectly, but it's going to allow you to be able to get to something faster, you're going to have to be able to sit with something being not completely to your vision, what you feel like that might say about you to other people, what you... the disappointment of not following through on something completely for yourself. And it's like, all of that's uncomfortable. But I think what helps me get through that discomfort, and first of all, is just practice, but also asking myself, would I rather have the discomfort of imperfection, or would I rather have the deeper discomfort of never fully moving the ball forward?

[00:51:08] Jason: Exactly. All right, that wraps up section two. We got two more sections. These are a little bit quicker, so we will try to get through them here to keep this episode at a reasonable time. This one is communicating through rough spots. And I think we really wanted to chat about this because it's so easy to give advice to anybody when you're in a good space. And so, for us, uh, we worked together really well in 2023 because things went really well. It was our best year financially. Um, we were just... everything was clicking. Uh, we released the new WAIM dashboard, which was awesome. That was a big project that didn't go super well, but still, like, it got done and, like, we were really excited and happy with it. But on the flip side of that, to kick off this year, we have poured more work into Teachery for the past three months than since 2020 when you redesigned the entire thing. And it is the first three month consistent decline in revenue Teachery has ever had. And it sucks.

[00:52:03] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:52:04] Jason: And I think the reality is that there's an interesting correlation to the fact that we've had more difficult conversations in these past three months than we've had in the past five years. And it's because the truth is, seeing the decline of revenue in a business is not fun to see. And it makes you feel negative feelings, and it makes you feel, oh, did I make the wrong decision? Are we doing the wrong things? Are we spending too much time on this? Are we doing what...? And it's like, you have all of this kind of negativity building up. And then it comes out in these discussions where it's like, hey, it's not that big of a deal.

[00:52:35] Caroline: Totally.

[00:52:35] Jason: And if the grand scheme of things also a decline does not mean we have no revenue, it means we went from $10,500 to $10,200.

[00:52:43] Caroline: That's what I was going to say. That is the perspective that you have to always remember. And for us at least, I know that's not going to apply to every situation. Like some situations you're like, no, it is really dire financially, but in our situation, yeah, it's a decline, but you're going from the businesses making money to the businesses making less money. And you just have to take a breath to go, like, it is not dire. It is okay. I think also it's just the recognition that what you were just saying reminded me of, like, of course, when you see something declining instead of growing, it naturally is going to put your brain into a scarcity mode because that's what it does to your brain, right? It says, like, there's less of something. So like, let me hold on to everything I have so tightly. And what does scarcity do? It activates, like, your fear response, right? And so when you're activated in a fear place, you're going to have conflict more, because when you have two people in a conversation, both activated from us in a scarcity mode, coming from a fear place, there's going to be blame, there's going to be criticism, there's going to be, why'd you do it this way? There's going to be, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like, you're not, you're, there's no wonder that you're coming to those conversations not able to see the full, like, you're not coming to those conversations with love, you're not coming to those conversations with abundance. You're not coming to those conversations with gratitude. So of course you're going to walk away being like, that didn't go well. And so I think it's just knowing that is it means you have to work that much harder to recognize when you're in a fear place and a scarcity place and go, I'm going to try my best to mindfully counteract this by showing up with love, by showing up with abundance, by showing up with optimism, by showing up with resolve, by showing up with resilience, like, you have to more intentionally activate those little brain centers so that you can not head into a conversation as the worst version of yourself.

[00:54:39] Jason: Yeah. And I think as we've tried to really pay attention to these first couple months is like, we get into these, like, heated conversations because of everything you just said, like the weight that it brings to it, the scarcity, the fear, all that, and it's. We just have to sit back and go, this is not that important.

[00:54:54] Caroline: Yes.

[00:54:54] Jason: It is important to make money so that we can live the lives that we want, but in the grand scheme of everything that we have going on, this is not as a big of a deal as we are making it.

[00:55:04] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:55:04] Jason: And I think that, like, that's... It's a hard thing to do, but it's just a practice. It's a thing that you have to cultivate in your ability to deal with the ups and downs of working on your own business and, like, trying to chase down some goal that you set for yourself previously. Again, it's like previous you set your future self up for potential failure. And when that failure, or just like a decline happens, present you is the one who has to deal with it. Previous you doesn't have to deal with it, present you does.

[00:55:30] Caroline: I was going to say this is, I think, one of the beautiful things and one of the dangerous things about being a goal oriented person, someone who is motivated by goals.

[00:55:38] Jason: You're saying gold oriented?

[00:55:40] Caroline: Being a gold oriented person, a goal oriented person. Like, it's great because you're very motivated by big visions, right? Like, when you and I both sat down, we were like, We're going to grow Teachery this year, is so motivating. I started this year on such a high because I love having a little something to work towards. I love waking up in the morning and knowing what I'm working towards. The downside of that is our brains love... I mean, some of us, some of our brains very easily get hooked into that goal and it can start to feel like the only thing that matters. And it's not. It is not the only thing that matters. It is actually, in the grand scheme of life, just a little something that you're giving your brain to chew on, really. And Jason and I often talk about this when we need a perspective shift, is, I think it was on a podcast many years ago, I heard about this, like, scientific study of rats, and they... Anyway, the whole study was just like, they gave the rats, like, something to play with and something to do. And those rats were like, better off than the rats with nothing to do. And the rats that had nothing to do actually died. And so it was like the whole point of the study was about play and about, like, an enriched environment, stuff like that. But my takeaway from it, which I don't know is accurate or not, it just... I couldn't help but draw parallels between that and, like, the idea of capital w work.

[00:56:58] Jason: Yeah.

[00:56:59] Caroline: And I know that there's all these other factors that have to do with work, which is, like, you know, your personal sense of contribution and money, which is a very real thing that we need to live. So, like, divorce that from it for a second and just think of work as something that we all get very wrapped up in because we wake up in the morning and we want a purpose to work towards. And sometimes I just think that work, that's all work is, is we're all just rats in a cage that needs something to keep our minds busy so that we don't die.

[00:57:24] Jason: And this is the thing that, like, I've come back to. And, like, it's... I think it's why I've done all these, like, ridiculous projects over the years, is, like, we all have to do something to literally get strangers to give us some of their money. That's all we're trying to do. That's literally all of us are trying to do. So I'm like, can I just make that fun? Like, whatever that thing is. Can I just make that thing, like, a little bit different? And so as we're starting to work on Teachery, you know, this project, again, as I mentioned earlier, there's so many things that we want to do, but we only get to do so many of those things because we can't do all of them. And so it's about trying to make it fun, which we'll talk more about in a minute. But I think for you, listening to this, like, if you've been frustrated working on your business, if you've been, you can't do things fast enough, maybe things aren't working. The... The person that you subscribe to for a long time on YouTube, who you learned all this stuff from, you then applied it to try to create your own business, and it didn't work. It's really easy to get stuck in, like, a cloud of negativity and fear and scarcity, but it's so much better if you can... and it's just, again, a practice just to be like, okay, but this is all made up. Like, all of this is made up. So let me move on to the next made up thing where I can now try and get money from different strangers in some way. And, like, I will just try and do that. And I just think that as much as you can come back to that and remember that we need that enrichment to survive as human beings of, you know, we're just simple mammals at the end of the day. That's okay. And just trying to recenter your thoughts on that.

[00:58:44] Caroline: Yeah, and I think we do have a section at the end here, just about fun in general, but I think that's a really good point to remember. And, you know, ultimately, I think that is also what comes out of these hard discussions and why they're so necessary is because, I don't know about you, but after those two days, I kind of felt this, like, weird sense of relief. Like, I had just been through, like, a really hard therapy session or something where I was, like, it was just very clarifying about what is and is not important. Sometimes you have to go to that edge where, you know, there's so much tension that, again, is not very normal for us. We don't live in that place of tension. We live in a place of levity. We live in a place of, like, romantic friendship, partnership, I would say. And so when I'm feeling that sort of, like, adversarial energy, it's not... It doesn't feel good, but I have to go to that edge to take a step back and go, okay, if this quote, unquote, goal that we're working towards is leading us to this edge, it is not... It's not fricking worth it. Like, it's stupid. Like, I care about our relationships so much more than I care about some arbitrary goal...

[00:59:51] Jason: That previous us made.

[00:59:52] Caroline: That previous us made. Exactly. And so there is a sense of relief that comes after these rough spots, right? And I think that actually helps you reframe it of whenever you're on a down... and this... this doesn't just go for partnership, but this goes for, like, if things aren't going so well in your business right now, this isn't just a kind of silver lining, like, Pollyanna things. I think it's actually a very valuable mindset to have, which is that it's a part of the story, and it's a necessary part of the story in order to clarify your values and clarify what's actually important.

[01:00:20] Jason: Yeah. And I think also anybody who has tasted any level of success as defined on their terms will know that if it just came easy, it wasn't very sweet and... and satisfying.

[01:00:31] Caroline: Exactly. And you always learn more from the downturns than you do from the ups.

[01:00:35] Jason: Exactly. And I think for WAIM, like, the reason why we're so grateful for WAIM is because it was very hard in the beginning. Like we had three years of just like scraping by, pulling money from savings, trying things that didn't work, trying things... some of them worked kind of, having to repivot the entire business, and we finally got it to work and it's like, oh, this feels amazing. Like it feels so good and it would have felt so different if it was just like, oh, we just started this and like, it did well. And I know that's easy to like think about, but it definitely is true for us and we've lived it. And I think this is the same thing that's going to happen for us with Teachery is this moment, this, this first quarter of this year and maybe it'll bleed into the second quarter because we just can't get things done as fast as we possibly want because we can't do everything because it's software. It's going to take a little bit longer, but once we start to see that uptick, I guarantee it's going to feel better than it would have had we just started the year and things upticked.

[01:01:22] Caroline: Totally. And I keep telling myself the only way we lose is if we give up. Like, I really believe that because I know, I believe in our product and I believe in our customers.

[01:01:29] Jason: There are lots of strangers with money.

[01:01:31] Caroline: There's so many strangers.

[01:01:31] Jason: We can find more of them.

[01:01:32] Caroline: There's the most strangers.

[01:01:33] Jason: Yeah.

[01:01:34] Caroline: And I think, yeah, just like I was telling you the other day, like, I'm more excited than I've ever been about Teachery. And it just sucks that it's on the backdrop of the decline. But I believe that if we just keep going and we believe in our vision and of course it's easier for us to say because we've gone through this exact thing with WAIM. And so it's easy to pull from historical data and be like, again, if I... like, I win if I don't give up. I win if I don't give up.

[01:01:59] Jason: All right, two, two things. Just quick little tactical things for the communicating through rough spot, little takeaways here for you if this is potentially helpful. They're kind of like two rules for us. One is we never leave the table when we're in our conversation. So we don't emotionally check out.

[01:02:14] Caroline: We don't drop the tote handle.

[01:02:15] Jason: Exactly. I was going to say that, coming back to my metaphor, the idea is like, hey, this is heavy. Let's stop for a minute. We'll still be holding the handle together.

[01:02:23] Caroline: Right.

[01:02:23] Jason: But like, you need five minutes just to, like, stare off at the lake that we're walking by.

[01:02:27] Caroline: Yep.

[01:02:27] Jason: And, like, I'll just be there, you know, just doing my own thing, and then we'll come back together. We'll pick up the tote, and we'll keep walking.

[01:02:32] Caroline: Exactly. We... Hold on. I have to sneeze.

[01:02:34] Jason: No, you don't have to. Oh, I thought I could steal it if I said that. Are you gonna do...?

[01:02:38] Caroline: You're trying...?

[01:02:39] Jason: A couple?

[01:02:39] Caroline: No, just one.

[01:02:39] Jason: Okay, great.

[01:02:41] Caroline: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say is I think there's a big difference between, like, not leaving the table and not giving yourself time to emotionally regulate. So I just want to make the distinction. We will get to a place where it's clear. It's like when a voice starts to get a little raised or when a person starts using words like never or always, or when someone starts talking faster and you can tell that they're being... their nervous system is being activated, either one of us will go, I think I need to just take five minutes. And that, to us, is not leaving the table. It's taking a break. It's putting the tote down, but it's keeping your hand on the handle and saying, like, I'm committed to moving through this conversation and arriving at some point of closure. That is what works for us. I understand everyone's conflict style is different. So I'm not saying that works for everyone, but for us, in the way that our relationship dynamic works, it's very, very, very important that both of us don't feel abandoned emotionally in the conversation. And so not leaving the table is about, like, us needing to work through some point of closure, even if we don't see eye to eye.

[01:03:44] Jason: All right. I'll lower the price for our book to $6,900 one time payment, if you want it. Okay. And then the second tactical thing is, we never go to bed angry, and we're really never angry. I mean, I don't think we have ever yelled at each other in our entire 14 year relationship.

[01:03:58] Caroline: Yeah, that's not our thing.

[01:03:58] Jason: I think we've, like, slightly raised voices or, like you said, talked faster. Maybe, you know, had a swear word in there or two. But it's never even at the other person. It's just in the point that we're making. So, for us, like, we really lean on just not kind of ending the day on a negative note and whatever that takes.

[01:04:18] Caroline: Or, like, holding a grudge, I think also.

[01:04:20] Jason: And I think we really try and, like, make light of things. We really try and laugh about things. We really try and talk about things. And listen, that's not to say that we go to bed, like, just cuddling and feeling so great, but it's that we don't go to bed in just a negative place.

[01:04:33] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:04:33] Jason: And we may go to bed and, like, hey, I'm still not feeling great about this, but I'm glad that we, like, talked about it. And, like, tomorrow we'll come back to it with fresh eyes and fresh ears and we'll see how it goes.

[01:04:41] Caroline: Yeah. And also, for us, humor is like a big diffuser. So I think, like, probably if you looked back at all of our hard, quote unquote conversations, I bet there would be a pattern where we know that the closure point has been reached when we can joke about it.

[01:04:57] Jason: When Jason is making inappropriate jokes.

[01:04:59] Caroline: No, I make inappropriate jokes, too, because I love that. But it's like, yeah, you know, luckily, humor is, like, a huge undercurrent in our relationship. It's the foundation of our relationship from the beginning. So, I mean, and we both have a pretty, like, dark sense of humor at times. So, I mean, even... There will even be, like, things that were said in the conversation that, like, clearly are very sensitive, but...

[01:05:20] Jason: You make light of them.

[01:05:21] Caroline: You make light of them. And because we both know that, like, that is our... one of our love languages.

[01:05:26] Jason: Yeah.

[01:05:27] Caroline: It's okay. Like, there's not... I can't even think of an instance where you've, like, said something and I've been actually like, that's too soon. You know what I mean? Because what I recognize is when you're making a joke about it, that's you saying, I heard you. That's actually what you're saying is I heard you, and I don't want this to weigh heavy on us. And so I'm going to choose to make a joke about it so that we can bring life to it and so that we can actually work it into our relationship and talk about it. And so for us, humor is a really big tool to be able to end with closure, to end with some laughter, and to signal to the other person, like, I heard you.

[01:06:01] Jason: Yeah. Great. All right, last thing here that we want to touch on is the topic of remembering your values. And for us, the biggest one here, especially as we're kind of dealing with these things as it's really related to working together on Teachery, is that it has to feel fun. And again, going back to that enriched environment study and just being rats that need something to do so that we don't die. What is the point of doing all this if it's not fun? And I think I... I've talked about this on the podcast before, but there was this moment when we were, you know, building Wandering Aimfully that I just kind of... it was even for myself. I just, like, threw a journal down on the floor, and it wasn't at anybody. It was just like, I was so frustrated with myself because I was so grumpy, and I was just like, we need to make this fun. Like, we have to come back to the fact that, like, we are fun people. We love humor. Again, what are we building here? Like, we're building silly things on the Internet that are just convincing other people to give us money. And, yes, we are exchanging value for that. I'm not trying to make light of that, but also, like, every part of this should be as fun as possible because we get to choose all of these parts. So, like, let's remember that. That's always a value of ours.

[01:07:04] Caroline: Completely.

[01:07:04] Jason: And so I think for us, like, we, we're, we're trying to, in every moment where we have these tough conversations, circle back to that, because it's easy to forget when you're in, like, a technical task or a design task or whatever. And, like, you need all your mental focus, and you're kind of like, your, your face is scrunched and you're just, like, looking at each other and you're like, but I needed to do this. And you just kind of be like, yeah, but also, this is fun. Like, we, like, it's a game that we're playing here to, like, try and win in our own ways. Let's just remember that.

[01:07:30] Caroline: And I really am convinced that a lot of that comes down to running your own race. I think the more you get into comparison mode, the more you get into such a rigid, like, holding yourself to such a rigid timeline with your own goals, the more you back yourself into that place of rigidity and that place of comparison and that place of setting high expectations for yourself. Of course you're going to become, like, a Scrooge-y version of yourself where you just, everything feels urgent and everything feels so serious and everything feels so... because you have to focus so hard, and it's like, okay, well, is this fun? Is it even fun anymore? And if it's not, to your point, I think that does mean that you have to loosen the reins not just on your own seriousness and your own focus, but it means you also have to loosen the reins a little bit on your own self judgment and your own... Yeah. Just self judgment, like, you have to be okay with, like, this is gonna take longer than I thought.

[01:08:28] Jason: Yeah.

[01:08:28] Caroline: Oh, well. Or, like, oh, I'm not. I'm not. Can't do as much as the big software companies that exist out there. Okay.

[01:08:34] Jason: Yeah.

[01:08:35] Caroline: It's not coming as easy to me as that person I saw in that YouTube video. Okay.

[01:08:38] Jason: Yeah. And, like, okay, we do have to move forward. And so part of that is, like, 75% is good enough, you know, like, this is what we can get out into the world. And we'll circle back to this. We're going to put a quarterly meeting on the calendar so that we can revisit and maybe finish that 25% off if we have time.

[01:08:53] Caroline: Also, I... that just reminded me, in a weird way, do you ever see those people, like, maybe they have a business or they put something out online, and you look at it and you're kind of like, this is, like, kind of mediocre, and... And, like, there's a part of you that judges that, and you're like, I would never put out something like that. Like, mediocre, or with those, like, rough around the edges in a way. I'm thinking of, like, a couple people specifically in my mind that put out digital products where I was like, really? That's... we're just doing that? Okay, but jokes on. Jokes on me because, listen, there's something to be said about, like, yes, you want to lead with value and whatever, but there's a... There's kind of this other part of it that I'm almost like, I admire that, right? Because I'm like, again, jokes on me. That person is out there doing it.

[01:09:38] Jason: Yeah.

[01:09:38] Caroline: That person is out there putting something into the world. That person is out there getting their ideas out. That person is out there making progress. And, you know, some of us who have this, like, very high standard for ourselves are over here, like, king of our own worlds, but nobody knows what we're doing.

[01:09:57] Jason: Exactly. And if you're not even publishing things, it's like, it's so easy to criticize people who are publishing and being like, that is a mediocre YouTube video. It's like, when was the last time you uploaded a video? And you're like, oh, I haven't uploaded a video in months. And, and I do think that that is a really important perspective to just think about is, like, it's so easy to judge other people and, and to think, like, yeah, but, like, I could do that so much better. It's like, but are you?

[01:10:19] Caroline: But are you?

[01:10:20] Jason: Like, is that going out into the world? And. And I think that that's also, like, I mentioned this before on the podcast. Like, my buddy Paul Jarvis was like, there's a reason why writers never leave reviews for other writers' books.

[01:10:29] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:10:29] Jason: It's because you know how much effort it takes to do those things. So even if a book is not great.

[01:10:35] Caroline: You mean one star review?

[01:10:36] Jason: Yeah, yeah, crappy review. I mean, I don't think they leave any reviews, but, like, yeah, they don't leave negative reviews because they know how hard it is. And I think that that's even something for us as creators is just like, you look at somebody else's stuff and be, like, that's not that great, but, like, you know how hard it is to make that thing. So even if it didn't come off fantastic, you're not going to go and, like, put them on blast and do anything.

[01:10:54] Caroline: No. And what I mean is, like, actually that person kind of, in a way, deserves your admiration because they're holding up a mirror to you going like, mmm, could I be out here shipping more stuff? Could I be out here doing more scrappy things?

[01:11:05] Jason: And I think we all could. And I think if anything, like, that's the takeaway of this episode, even though it's, you know, titled about, you know, working with your spouse, it's really just about trying to, like, get more of the things done that you're holding yourself back on doing. Whether that's because you're working with other people and there's friction, it doesn't work it. Or you have your own perfectionism tendencies, like we do, or you're just, like, putting too much pressure on things when, like, it should just be lighter and it should be more fun and it should be more experimental and just like, see how things go and just do more things and then, like, kind of review and change and update and do that. But, like, no one has ever regretted publishing more. They've probably regretted not publishing and just sitting and going, oh, well, it's taken me two years to actually get this thing out into the world. Like, I wish I'd started it two years ago because now I'd be two years further along than I was.

[01:11:51] Caroline: True. Before we wrap up, Jason.

[01:11:53] Jason: Okay.

[01:11:54] Caroline: I wanted to end this episode.

[01:11:55] Jason: This is going to be a brioche. Go ahead.

[01:11:57] Caroline: I told you this offline, but I would like to talk. I would like to bring it online. I just want to wrap up with appreciation for you. I told you I appreciate so much that we're different. I appreciate that you take more risks than I do. I appreciate... I appreciate the most that you actually are willing to sit with me and communicate at a very high level and work through hard conversations and, you know, agree to the rules of engagement, where we don't get angry at each other and yell at each other, but, like, we can have hard disagreements. And I think that it takes a really, like, special person and character to be able to do that. And I just wanted you to know that I appreciate it, and all the effort is being seen.

[01:12:42] Jason: I appreciate you as well. I'm excited to have a partner to carry my tote with, even if you don't actually carry the tote because you don't go to the grocery store with me, and I go by myself, which is the hilarious part about that.

[01:12:52] Caroline: Feels like it turned into a criticism.

[01:12:55] Jason: What do they call it, a backhanded compliment? I don't know. But, no, I agree. And I think that, like, I know this podcast, it doesn't have a very big audience, but I think that we have so many people who listen to it and will listen all the way to the end of these episodes who appreciate the fact that we give a real look at what it's like for two people who live together, work together, have a relationship together.

[01:13:14] Caroline: I hope so 'cause, otherwise, there is not a good reason for me to be airing my relationship laundry on the Internet.

[01:13:18] Jason: $6,800. I'll do $6,800, uh, for one person. Uh, but, yeah, no, I... I just want to say I also am super grateful to have a partner who has as many differing skills as I do to be able to then combine those together to... to do as many things we do. We run two businesses, and that is very difficult to even just do one business with two people. So to be able to run two is a testament to both of our abilities to work together.

[01:13:43] Caroline: Carry that tote.

[01:13:44] Jason: Yeah. And I think even, just like, the fact that we can get through these first three months and not give up is... is a testament to, like, your strength and your ability to... to work through these things and to carry the emotional sensitivity that you do through all this because, most of the time, I'm just wandering around like an idiot, bumping into things. Yeah, I think that's...

[01:14:00] Caroline: You're very good at listening, and you're very good at applying what you hear.

[01:14:03] Jason: Yeah, I'm not... Just, I'm just gonna say this here at the end, because no one's gonna remember. I don't actually listen. I'm just sitting there dead eyed. I'm thinking about the next bread I'm gonna bake.

[01:14:11] Caroline: Yeah, but you know what the what's funny about that? I know you're kidding, but you're one of the best person I've ever met in my life who is good at hearing without listening. So you will be doing something, and I'll be talking, and I'll go, were you listening? And you'll go, yeah. You said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you'll get it 100% accurate. And I'm like, yep. You didn't even... You didn't even acknowledge what that was until you said it out loud. So I know you weren't listening to it. You just heard it. And it really pisses me off because you're so good at repeating it.

[01:14:42] Jason: Yeah. Thankfully, gifted with very large ears. So they just collect all...

[01:14:45] Caroline: You think it's the ear size?

[01:14:46] Jason: No, not at all.

[01:14:46] Caroline: No, I don't either.

[01:14:46] Jason: It's the cognitive ability to be able to take in a lot of information for some reason.

[01:14:50] Caroline: Yeah.

[01:14:51] Jason: All right, let's wrap this sucker up. This was a little bit of a longer one, but we hope you enjoyed it. Next episode is our 200th episode, and we're gonna do something. We still don't know what it is, but we'll decide next week, and it'll be fun.

[01:15:01] Caroline: It'll be fun.

[01:15:01] Jason: Okay. Thanks for listening. Hope you enjoyed it. Goodbye.

[01:15:04] Caroline: Bye.