187 - Taking a side project to a full-time project

[00:00:00] Caroline: Welcome to What Is It All For? A podcast designed to help you grow your online business and pursue a spacious, satisfying life at the same time. We're your hosts, Jason and Caroline Zook, and we run Wandering Aimfully, an unboring business coaching program. Every week, we bring you advice and conversations to return you to your most intentional self and to help you examine every aspect of your life and business by asking, What Is It All For? Thanks for listening. And now let's get into the show.

[00:00:28] Jason: And I'm here, too.

Okay, I have a question unprompted for you, Caroline, which...

[00:00:37] Caroline: I think this is. I would like to be on record saying, this is a bad idea.

[00:00:40] Jason: This is a bad idea. For those of you who don't know our relationship, this is not Caroline's favorite thing that I do.

[00:00:46] Caroline: It's an ill advised throw.

[00:00:47] Jason: It's an ill advised throw. For the Rudolph the red zone reindeer participants, that's on your bingo card. Ill advised throw. But it's going to end up as a back shoulder pass, which is a good thing.

[00:00:57] Caroline: You've lost me. I will do one sports ball reference per episode, and you're already over your quota.

[00:01:02] Jason: Does our...? Okay, you know where we are on the stand mixer debacle. If those of you have been listening to every episode meticulously. I bake bread. I make cookies. I could use a stand mixer in our house, like a kitchenaid or whatever.

[00:01:17] Caroline: Have you brought me here live to this podcast to try to on air convince me to have you buy a stand mixer?

[00:01:23] Jason: Absolutely not. I have a separate product. Do we need...?

[00:01:27] Caroline: Go ahead.

[00:01:27] Jason: In our home, a Ninja Creami?

[00:01:35] Caroline: You should have asked me offline.

[00:01:36] Jason: No. Before you answer the question, how do you feel about the question now? This is an okay question to ask.

[00:01:40] Caroline: I don't love the word creamy.

[00:01:42] Jason: I don't either. It's also spelled with an I, which I really don't like.

[00:01:46] Caroline: Just M-I?

[00:01:47] Jason: Yeah.

[00:01:47] Caroline: Okay.

[00:01:47] Jason: I really don't like.

[00:01:48] Caroline: What is it?

[00:01:49] Jason: But again, don't worry about that yet. How do you feel about this question that I brought up unprompted in the beginning of the podcast?

[00:01:54] Caroline: I think it's a real left turn.

[00:01:55] Jason: But it's not an ill advised pass, is it?

[00:01:57] Caroline: It's not an ill advised pass. It's completely benign. It's a benign question.

[00:02:01] Jason: It's like a back shoulder pass, right? Like it's in the right spot.

[00:02:03] Caroline: Hey, bud, you're over your quota. What did I say?

[00:02:05] Jason: Okay. Anyway, do we need one of these?

[00:02:09] Caroline: What is it?

[00:02:10] Jason: It's an ice cream maker, but it's like a small... it only makes, like, this size. I'm showing you, like, the size of, like, a pint, basically. For those of you who obviously are just listening to this podcast, it's an ice cream making machine.

[00:02:21] Caroline: Okay.

[00:02:21] Jason: But it has very much taken off in the past couple of years. This is classic us. We're, like, two years late to this product, so we don't even have to worry about the fact that it's, like, out of stock, because all the TikTok people are talking about it.

[00:02:31] Caroline: Oh, it's a TikTok thing.

[00:02:32] Jason: It went nuts. It went bonkers on TikTok, apparently, like, two years ago.

[00:02:35] Caroline: This is actually... We're not on TikTok.

[00:02:38] Jason: Nope.

[00:02:38] Caroline: So we get all the TikTok stuff two years later.

[00:02:41] Jason: Exactly.

[00:02:42] Caroline: And then usually it is back in stock by the time it makes its way over to these old fogeys.

[00:02:46] Jason: Yeah, I was...

[00:02:46] Caroline: Was that an okay...? Appropriate? I don't know what that means. Old person?

[00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, sure. Old foggies?

[00:02:51] Caroline: Okay, let's do the safer option, which is... old foggies.

[00:02:54] Jason: Also The Fog or The Mist? Which movie is better?

[00:02:57] Caroline: I can't remember the difference. What's the boat one?

[00:03:01] Jason: The Mist? I can't remember either.

[00:03:05] Caroline: That's the worse one. Yeah.

[00:03:05] Jason: Anyway, the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I was watching an interview, and they were talking about the flexible diet life, I think, is his name on Instagram and TikTok, but he basically makes all these much healthier alternatives to chocolate chip cookies or whatever.

[00:03:18] Caroline: You're in the new year vortex, aren't you?

[00:03:20] Jason: I am in some of it, but also, I eat a lot of sugar. I'm just going to be honest, and I think I could probably eat less of it as I'm getting older, so I'm looking for alternatives to replace that. And ice cream is something I absolutely love, but I should be eating, like, a healthier version.

[00:03:34] Caroline: How much money are we talking here?

[00:03:34] Jason: It's €220, I believe, so it's not that expensive.

[00:03:38] Caroline: But that's over the... That's like a... I got to think about it.

[00:03:41] Jason: It is, exactly. Yeah. But I was more bringing it up before of the podcast. We're four minutes in, and everyone doesn't care at all about this, but I think they're having fun.

[00:03:48] Caroline: Here they are again.

[00:03:49] Jason: Listen to their two favorite foggies talk about things.

[00:03:51] Caroline: Could you guys just have this conversation in your own damn kitchen?

[00:03:54] Jason: This is our kitchen.

[00:03:54] Caroline: On your own damn time?

[00:03:55] Jason: This is our kitchen.

[00:03:56] Caroline: Welcome to our kitchen.

[00:03:57] Jason: These conversations don't happen.

[00:03:58] Caroline: You're in our kitchen.

[00:03:59] Jason: Outside of the podcast.

[00:04:00] Caroline: Let's be honest. Half of you are in your own kitchen right now.

[00:04:01] Jason: The reason why I bring this up is I just want you to imagine your life with, like...

[00:04:07] Caroline: Can you turn anything into ice cream?

[00:04:08] Jason: Delicious... Yeah, exactly.

[00:04:09] Caroline: How do you flavor it?

[00:04:10] Jason: You just add your own ingredients. You make tiramisu ice cream if you want. Yeah. You make cookie dough ice cream if you want. You just have to experiment and try a whole bunch of things. Oreo ice cream.

[00:04:18] Caroline: I do like that part.

[00:04:19] Jason: It's... And also, like, we could make it with...

[00:04:21] Caroline: Why is it healthier?

[00:04:23] Jason: Because you can put your own things in it so you're not buying. And also, you've been to the grocery store with me here in Portugal, especially...

[00:04:27] Caroline: We don't have great ice cream.

[00:04:29] Jason: Don't have great ice cream. A lot of it's actually just gelato, not ice cream, which is totally fine, but we're ice cream people. But we can choose what type of sugar goes in. So we could use stevia. We got to choose what type of milk.

[00:04:40] Caroline: We gotta move on from this, but I will tell you something.

[00:04:41] Jason: Yeah.

[00:04:42] Caroline: I'm interested.

[00:04:43] Jason: Right.

[00:04:43] Caroline: That's what I thought.

I think it's a little manipulative that you brought me here in front of our friends to ask me this question.

[00:04:48] Jason: I just thought it would be fun to say Ninja Creami.

[00:04:51] Caroline: I don't know why you want to say cream. Yeah, see, I don't like it. I don't like it.

[00:04:54] Jason: Also, if we buy it, we're going to call it the Cream Eye.

[00:04:58] Caroline: Is this the Ninja Chop thing? Is this different? Or no, the Bullet. The Ninja Bullet.

[00:05:03] Jason: Ninja Bullet. Same company.

[00:05:04] Caroline: Same company.

[00:05:04] Jason: Same company. We had a Ninja Bullet ten years ago, whenever those things were... Also, three years late to that party, too.

[00:05:09] Caroline: How did this relate to the stand mixer?

[00:05:11] Jason: It's a similar addition to our home that we make a collaborative decision on and we decide. I still have not purchased a stand mixer and not sure I'm going to.

[00:05:19] Caroline: So this is going to push back your stand mixer decision. You know that, right?

[00:05:22] Jason: Yeah. If we're going to get Creami up in here.

[00:05:25] Caroline: I already hate it. Honestly, it might be a no.

[00:05:29] Jason: Hey, do you want some Cream Eye ice cream tonight?

[00:05:31] Caroline: It's a no. I'm sorry.

[00:05:33] Jason: For that reason, I'm out. Let's get into this episode. We are talking about taking a side project, not an ice cream maker, to the foreground of a business and of what you're working on.

[00:05:47] Caroline: And hopefully, if you're listening, this could be not just a project. It could be, like, an offer that has just gotten a little bit of your attention before and you want to make it your main thing. It could be a whole other business that you've been doing on the side that you're ready to give your all to. Anything that you feel like has been a little bit on the back burner and you're ready to front burner that thing.

[00:06:06] Jason: Yeah. And I think this is the perfect time because as we're recording this, it's the beginning of the year. It's when you get that new year, new energy, excitement. But this episode could be listened to at any time. If someone was just like, oh, I want to hear someone talk about taking a side project to a full time project. What does that look like? What are you thinking about? What are the mindset things you're doing? How are you prioritizing it? What are the specific steps that you're working on? And then how do you even define where you want to go with it? So those are all the things we want to share today.

[00:06:30] Caroline: And this is very top of mind and real time for what we're going through in our business right now because, in case you didn't catch the last episode, which was all about our 2023 in review, we touched on this a bit. But one of our big goals for the new year...

[00:06:45] Jason: Besides getting a Creami.

[00:06:46] Caroline: Besides getting... We got to rename it. Honestly, we got to rename it. I can't do it.

[00:06:52] Jason: Cream Eye?

[00:06:53] Caroline: A cream. No, I don't even like that. We'll workshop it. But one of our goals for 2024 is to really devote a lot of our attention to bringing our second business, which is called Teachery, and making that more of a primary focus.

[00:07:10] Jason: Also, just... So Teachery is an online course software.

[00:07:13] Caroline: Yes.

[00:07:14] Jason: It has been around since 2014 is when I co founded it.

[00:07:16] Caroline: If you know Teachable, if you know Kajabi, if you know these... Thinkific, these platforms. That is...

[00:07:22] Jason: Teachery exists.

[00:07:23] Caroline: The core of what Teachery does as a platform.

[00:07:24] Jason: And I think there are many people listening to this who are like, oh, you guys have a software product? Or, oh, I didn't even know Teachery existed. That's totally fine. Again, it has been a side project. It has never been something we have spent a lot of time on. So just want to give a quick review of what it is, how it started, and then we'll get into how we're making the shift.

[00:07:41] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:07:41] Jason: Sound good? Take us back to 2014. I basically wanted to make my first online course, and it was about helping people get paid, paying sponsorships. I looked around in platforms. There really wasn't much available, and all I wanted to do was have something that looked good. And even the ones are available, you couldn't make it look good. So I said, I'm going to give myself a couple hours in Photoshop. I was allowed to work in Photoshop at this time.

[00:08:03] Caroline: Photoshop.

[00:08:04] Jason: Yeah.

[00:08:04] Caroline: Just so you know, Teachery was made in Photoshop.

[00:08:07] Jason: I would say Photoshop. What are we at? Probably like six at that time, maybe?

[00:08:11] Caroline: Who knows?

[00:08:11] Jason: Anyway, so I literally just designed it myself. I have a small graphic design background. I'm no comparison to Caroline at design skills. I just put together this page and I sent it to people, and my question to them was, does this course look interesting to you? I wasn't asking about the... And they were like, what platform is this? The question I kept getting.

[00:08:30] Caroline: Yeah. The course is fine, but what did you make this in?

[00:08:32] Jason: I was like, no, I want to know if you like... because I put copy in there. I was like, does this read well? And they're like, no. How did you make it look like this? I was like, well, it's a PSD file at the moment, so it doesn't look like anything. I had a developer. I said co-founder, I founded it by myself. I had a developer create a WordPress website based on that Photoshop file. I paid $2,000 for that to come into existence.

[00:08:51] Caroline: Nice.

[00:08:52] Jason: That was the start of Teachery. No one else could really use it.

[00:08:55] Caroline: This is your own custom course theme.

[00:08:57] Jason: Exactly. I did end up cloning that site for a couple of people for them to use on their own. That didn't go necessarily well because it was just very cobbled together. But anyway, at a conference a couple of months after that, we met a developer who came up to me. His name was Gerlando, and he basically said... This is in Fargo, North Dakota, of all places. He said, Hey, I'm a developer. I've followed some of your weird projects over the years. If you ever have anything that you're working on and you need a developer, I'd just love to work with you on something. And I was like, Actually, my friend, I do have something that's kind of interesting. So we started working on Teachery. Gerlando built the very first version. Wow, was it ugly. He had really not a lot of development skills. I had absolutely no app building skills or product building skills. Also, I was still designing this in Photoshop.

[00:09:39] Caroline: So by your powers combined, you made a nice...

[00:09:41] Jason: A nice, ugly-looking software product.

[00:09:44] Caroline: Software product. Good job.

[00:09:45] Jason: And in the first year, Teachery made a whopping $500.

[00:09:48] Caroline: Congratulations.

[00:09:49] Jason: And it was...

[00:09:49] Caroline: Not nothing.

[00:09:50] Jason: It was not nothing. Again, it was just a side project. Both of us had full time gigs that we were working on. We're working on it, like, late hours, sending messages back and forth via email essentially at the time. This is before Slack existed. So I think we were also like Skyping to talk about it, which tells you the time of it. In year two, Teachery started to get a little bit of steam, tiny bit of steam, and it made $5,000 total. So we 10x'd revenue.

[00:10:14] Caroline: Way to go. 10X revenue.

[00:10:16] Jason: Didn't really do much. I think I was literally just talking about it on Twitter was the only growth thing, but it was like, offhandedly like, hey, I made this course. And people would say, Oh, how'd you make that course? Oh, I have a course offer that I created.

[00:10:27] Caroline: And, I mean, you benefited tremendously from it just wasn't a crowded marketplace at the time. There was really not a lot of people doing it.

[00:10:33] Jason: I give credit to a couple of other people, like David Seitman-Garland at that time was like a course creator that was selling a ton of courses. He even did the same thing I did. He made his own version of a course platform because he wanted it a certain way. And his was also like a WordPress plugin to start. But this is when you started to see people like Teachable pop up. But the name of the company at that time was Use Fedora.

[00:10:53] Caroline: Right.

[00:10:53] Jason: Then we had always been Teachery. It has never had a different name. I remember us driving the day that we came up with the name Teachery in the car, and then they changed the name to Teachable. We're not salty about it, but it doesn't matter.

[00:11:04] Caroline: But in case you were wondering how that went down.

[00:11:06] Jason: Anyway, year over year, Teachery has just continued to evolve, to grow. In 2020, we spent the entire year, you redesigned the entire interface to be something so much more beautiful. We had a development team that basically reengineered the application. It's so much more usable and friendly and customizable. So it took a big leap. All time, since that very beginning in 2014, Teachery has made $819,000 as a side project.

[00:11:33] Caroline: Wow.

[00:11:34] Jason: So that's ten years. So that's an average of $80,000 a year. That's a side project. That's pretty awesome. Now, it has probably cost close to that amount of money to run it.

[00:11:46] Caroline: We would have to go back to the financials to see what the net profit is.

[00:11:49] Jason: It's definitely been a profitable business because we haven't had to put too much into it, but it has just been very interesting. That's the first time I've looked at the total revenue that Teachery has made.

[00:11:59] Caroline: Yeah, I couldn't have told you.

[00:12:00] Jason: In a long time. I think, I don't have this figure in front of me. But last I looked at it, which I believe was like mid year last year, Teachery has helped people sell $10 million worth of courses.

[00:12:09] Caroline: So cool.

[00:12:09] Jason: Which is awesome to me. I care about that metric, especially as a side project more than anything else. Our highest ever monthly recurring revenue with Teachery was in March of 2022 at $12,300.

[00:12:20] Caroline: Nice.

[00:12:20] Jason: In monthly money. And then our current monthly recurring revenue has dropped down to $10,700. And then a total all time paying customers of Teachery from... And I don't think this is necessarily true from the very beginning, but I think it's close, 1,348 total people have ever paid for Teachery at least once.

[00:12:37] Caroline: That's the nitty gritty, which is fun.

[00:12:39] Jason: So I think it's interesting to share all that for context because I love having all this to look back on when we are two, three, four, or five years removed from now because where we're starting now is the revenue is slightly on the decline.

[00:12:52] Caroline: Right.

[00:12:53] Jason: We have zero growth...

[00:12:54] Caroline: For the longest time, it was on the slight incline doing no marketing.

[00:12:58] Jason: And that's what I was just going to say, we have never had content marketing. We have never done any type of growth initiative. I tried Facebook ads once in 2018 for a month, and I just hated the process of it. I was paying someone to do it. They did a great job, but I just really hated doing that work.

[00:13:12] Caroline: We do have a referral program so people can refer, but we don't promote it at all. And so that's just word of mouth.

[00:13:19] Jason: I hope the main takeaway here is, yes, all these numbers are nice, but I think it's worth just saying, like, in the ten years the Teachery has existed, we have basically done nothing.

[00:13:28] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:13:28] Jason: And we have worked on the product. We've made the product as good as two people can possibly make it in their side project time. And I hope you listening to this, if you have a side project, you can kind of relate to a lot of this. Maybe your side project hasn't made $800,000 over the course of ten years, but maybe your side project has only existed for one year and you're at that $500 mark. And so you're right where we were at the beginning. And I hope that this episode is something that inspires people to go, yeah, I do want to take my side project and 10x it from $500 last year to $5,000 this year. That's a great jump. And if you're not necessarily spending all of your time on it, that's a nice little bump in revenue. However, there's also something that we're doing, which is really shifting it to the forefront, which is what we want to talk about.

[00:14:10] Caroline: Exactly, because we want to get across the idea of what do you do when you see something in your business that has potential or you have another business that has potential and you just can't let go of it yet? Because sometimes in business, there's a moment where you just go, okay, that didn't really do what I thought I was going to do. I'm just going to kind of let it go. But this episode is for those of you who see potential in some aspect of your business and you know you want to cultivate that potential and you just go, but how? And so that's what we want this episode to be about, is telling you exactly how we're thinking about how do you go from something being a side project and kind of an afterthought to being the first thing that you wake up in the morning thinking about so that you can actually cultivate that potential? Because we might end up at the end of 2024 and it doesn't grow at all. And we spent this whole year focusing on it and nothing really happened. And that's okay. But at least...

[00:15:02] Jason: We gave it a good shot.

[00:15:03] Caroline: We gave it a good shot. We have never, in the ten years that Teachery has been around, we have never given it a full shot.

[00:15:08] Jason: Yeah, the biggest shot we gave it was 2020, but that was all internal.

[00:15:12] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:15:12] Jason: There was still not a single piece of content created.

[00:15:15] Caroline: And that was the whole idea in 2020 of redesigning the app was, let's give it a good shot. But we know that the product doesn't zook where it needs to. And so we poured all that energy, but then we were so exhausted from that process that we didn't take the time to then go market that, right?

[00:15:29] Jason: Exactly. And we are also juggling two businesses, which I think is the reality if you're someone who has a business that's a side project, and you're just like, I don't know how much time I had to spend on this. Again, maybe this is the year that you're amping that up a bit.

[00:15:41] Caroline: Okay, well, that is a very good point that we don't have in our notes here that I think is worth a little side tangent, which is...

[00:15:46] Jason: This is where we're getting into the Ninja Creamies. It's not in the note list.

[00:15:50] Caroline: The reason why 2024 is the right time for us to take this full time is because now our other business, Wandering Aimfully, the flywheel is fully spinning. That business is predictable. It is just fully...

[00:16:08] Jason: Yeah, it functions very well as a business.

[00:16:10] Caroline: Very well as a business.

[00:16:11] Jason: Predictable.

[00:16:11] Caroline: It doesn't mean it's hands off.

[00:16:13] Jason: Right.

[00:16:13] Caroline: It just means that we know what we're doing, we know what fuels the business, and we can do that. There's not a lot of effort and growth mentality that needs to go towards that business, which makes this year the perfect year to then transition and go, okay, now where do we put our growth energy? It's like we have maintenance energy and growth energy. WAIM functions really well with some maintenance energy, but where are we going to apply our growth energy? And so I do think it is worth taking a moment. If you do have this thing that you want to take more full time, just ask yourself, is it realistic? Are my other kind of things that I have going right now, my other priorities, are they more in maintenance mode where I do have the bandwidth to now take this full time? Because if they aren't, what can you do to get them to a maintenance mode? Or what can you prune and cut? Because don't be like us last year, which was, we thought that would be the year that Teachery grew.

[00:17:03] Jason: I think this is a good kind of next step in this. And I think this is just giving anyone listening this permission to this year might not be the year that you take your side project all the way from back burner to front burner, but maybe you just like scooch it.

[00:17:15] Caroline: Mid burner.

[00:17:16] Jason: You scooch it. And so what we did last year is we scooched. 2023, we went from not working on Teachery consistently at all. I worked on it pretty much every day for at least an hour a day, doing customer support, working with our developer, making sure that the wheels didn't fall off the app. But again, there's no growth, there's no marketing. It's just literally talking to customers and our developers. So what we decided to do in 2023 was let's carve out one day a week that both of us are going to work on Teachery. At a bare minimum, it's Teachery Fridays, and we're going to at least meet every week to talk about if we have time to work on something. What are we working on? And so we started off the year, I think, pretty well, and we decided, okay, well, there's a big missing piece of this. We want to create themes. This is something we've talked about for a long time, which is predesigned courses. Okay, that's not a growth or a marketing or we think it could be a growth thing if it's like on the homepage and enticing people to sign up, but we got to build this out and whatever. So we literally spent months working on that. And I think what that led us to was just like, we don't have the time and bandwidth right now to work on Teachery and the wheels kind of fell off and focusing on that time, which again, I'm hopeful in sharing this, you just hear that that's okay.

[00:18:25] Caroline: That's okay.

[00:18:26] Jason: It's so easy to hear these stories of perfectly linear growth from something, from nothing to something. We're talking about ten years of finally getting to Teachery getting full time attention.

[00:18:35] Caroline: Yeah. And this is also part of the whole idea of calm business, growing steady, which is scooching is okay. Sometimes it is a gradual transition. We are not the 0 to 60 people. It's like we needed that little bit of transition to test our... dip our toe in the water of what would it feel like to try to work more on Teachery. And we ended up at the end of the year going, we did not make the progress we wanted to. Let's learn from that and let's decide to now make a bigger shift because we did the little scooch. We tried the scooch first.

[00:19:10] Jason: And I think part of the thing that we've gotten to, and maybe you listen to this can relate to this, is like we've never given Teachery the full shot, its full chance. And I feel like 2024 is the year that we're saying the product is going to stay virtually the same with improvements and there are features we want to add it, but there are going to be smaller things. We're going to give it the full external growth marketing promotion shot that it has never had. Is it going to grow to meet the goals that we have? Which we'll talk about toward the end of this episode. And if it does great, then let's keep working on it. But if it doesn't, and we've given it a year to work on it and it has existed for this long, and maybe it doesn't work, then that's okay. At least we gave it a shot and now we know we're going to work on something else or whatever that looks like.

[00:19:52] Caroline: Definitely.

[00:19:52] Jason: Where do you want to go from here?

[00:19:53] Caroline: Well, I want to say there are basically like four main points that we want to hit home in this episode, just to give people a lay of the land of where we're headed.

[00:20:01] Jason: You're going to repeat my points that I already said earlier?

[00:20:03] Caroline: Did you say them earlier?

[00:20:04] Jason: Yeah.

[00:20:05] Caroline: You listed all of them?

[00:20:06] Jason: Yeah, but that's okay. You know why you don't remember?

[00:20:10] Caroline: Why?

[00:20:10] Jason: Because you were thinking about the Creami and you were like...

[00:20:13] Caroline: I was like...

[00:20:13] Jason: Tiramisu ice cream.

[00:20:14] Caroline: Tiramisu ice cream. That's delicious.

[00:20:15] Jason: Yeah. Okay, so let's just move forward in the rest of this first point.

[00:20:19] Caroline: Let's dive in first to the biggest thing, which is how are you prioritizing your time? And so this is the first thing that we looked at when we said, let's move this from a back burner to a front burner because really what you're saying is when you say back burner, front burner is you're talking about priorities. And when you talk about priorities, you're talking about schedules and time. How much time are you carving out for this thing that you want to grow?

[00:20:43] Jason: Yeah. And so with us balancing these two businesses, Wandering Aimfully and Teachery, Wandering Aimfully for the past five years has always come first. Teachery has been far in the back. Last year it moved scooched a little bit forward. This year we're scooching it all the way forward. Now that doesn't mean we're not working on Wandering Aimfully and we're not going to show up for our members. We're still going to do our monthly coaching. We still have our unboring accountability game. We're still going to send our emails. We're still going to do our weekly videos for our members only. Everything will probably feel exactly the same to Wandering Aimfully.

[00:21:11] Caroline: Exactly. It's just what I said before, which is all of those things that Jason just mentioned, they are well oiled machines. They are repeatable actions. They are predictable. So there's nothing to figure out. There's only work to be done and attention to be paid, and that's fine. But Teachery is this other ball of wax where there's everything to figure out, right? There's so much uncertainty. And so that takes effort. And so the big difference is we are not just going to be paying attention to Teachery on Fridays. We are going to be paying attention to Teachery, basically, Monday through Thursday. So we're swapping it. So before it was sort of like WAIM Monday to Thursday, Teachery on Fridays. Now we're swapping it. So it's Teachery Monday through Thursdays and then WAIM on Fridays.

[00:21:53] Jason: Yeah. One of the biggest things that we are going to focus on is working on our business, not in our business. And so when you're working in your business, this is like the processes, servicing clients, working on the product, like all the things...

[00:22:04] Caroline: That need to be done.

[00:22:06] Jason: Yeah, they need to be done, but people can't see and it's not really helping you necessarily grow that much. What we need to focus on is the bigger strategy of Teachery. What are the marketing things we want to do? What's the vision? What separates it from these other platforms? So I think this is very easy, especially with a side project. It's like, oh, I only have like a couple hours a week. All I can do is the in the business stuff. But it's the on the business stuff that takes it from a side project to a full time project.

[00:22:28] Caroline: And that's where you do real is you have to carve out the time, you have to make the time. So if you have a project right now that has only been a side project, what's probably happening is you're only carving out the amount of time necessary to do the in the business stuff, right? You're just like, okay, I got to fill these orders or I got to do X, Y and Z. Those are the urgent things. And so I do that. And that's sort of where you stop because other things need your attention. But until you start to carve off more of your schedule to be working on that business or to be working on that product or on that offer, it's going to take intentional effort to try to carve out that bubble of time because it's not just going to happen organically. And that's the biggest thing that we learned about last year, is, wow, we need to block off a lot more time and attention than we thought in order to not just do the things that would keep the wheels on, but to actually grow it.

[00:23:22] Jason: Because you wrote down this point, and I think this is kind of what my hope was three or four years ago was that Teachery was this boulder that had momentum and it was just like going uphill by itself. And so we were going from $8,000 recurring revenue per month to the next year it'd be 9000, to the next year it'd be 10,000. And it just kept linearly going up through word of mouth. But then it really did hit this point in 2022 where it just stopped.

[00:23:47] Caroline: It stopped rolling.

[00:23:48] Jason: And the momentum has stopped, which is totally fine because I don't think it necessarily means that Teachery as a product has gotten worse. I think it just means we have maxed out the amount of organic reach that we have through our small customer list, through our small email list. And there is a little bit of a reality that when you join WAIM, you get Teachery as well. So people probably maybe might be thinking like, oh, I'll join WAIM and not join by Teachery by itself. So all those things kind of just led us to say, like, okay, this thing has lost its momentum on its own. We need to focus on it. And so I think that in itself is also a big shift, which I think would lead us into some mindset shifts to talk about here.

[00:24:24] Caroline: Yes. So once we decided, okay, it starts with our time and our schedule and just carving out more time to start pushing this boulder back uphill again, that's step one. So for you, the action step is if you really want to take this thing and make it more of a focus, you simply have to come up with a way that in your schedule you can find that extra time. So whatever that looks like for you, for us, it's like the Monday through Thursday, Friday thing, but for you, maybe it's like I work on the first hour of the day or carving out that time.

[00:24:53] Jason: Whatever it looks like for you.

[00:24:54] Caroline: But if I could give you any piece of advice that we learned from last year, make it at the beginning of whatever that is. So make it at the beginning of the day or make it at the beginning of the week or the beginning of the month instead of the end of everything. Moving on to mindset. So that was step one. Step two was now, for me personally, I had to make the shift in my mind because in my mind for so many years now, for five years now, it's been Wandering Aimfully is the thing we're trying to grow and Teachery is kind of the thing that's on the side. But what I've realized is I need to intentionally try to shift my mindset to oh, no. I am a software co-founder who also has an online coaching business instead of I have an online coaching business and I have a software product on the side. Right. It's that mental shift of so for you, maybe it's like I'm an online coach who does art on the side. What I'm saying is for this year, if you want your art business to grow, try embodying the identity of I'm an artist who has an online coaching business on the side and making that shift in your own mind. I think it does change the way that you wake up every morning. I think it changes the way that you bring passion to your work, I think it changes the way that you just approach all of the tiny actions that have to happen in order for you to grow this business because you're putting on the identity of a person who is going to be doing those things.

[00:26:18] Jason: Yeah. And I think what's really interesting from my side of this, as the person who has been working on and in Teachery for the past ten years consistently, is. It's like a routine like anything else in my life for me now, where there's really no excitement to it, but there's no negativity to it either. It's just like, I get up, I do this thing, I move on, I go to the next task or whatever. But now that you're working on it, I'm like, oh, I'm kind of it. I have a buddy now to help me work on this project. And that's when Gerlando was working on Teachery. We parted ways, I think, in 2019.

[00:26:47] Caroline: Amicably.

[00:26:48] Jason: Amicably, totally fine. It was like I lost a little bit of that excitement. And I do think for anybody who might be, again, in this position of taking a side project to a full time project, whether you have someone who's a partner in the business or maybe you just need to find, like, a biz buddy, you just need to find someone who can go, okay, what do you working on? Are we kind of at the same level a little bit here? So it's not like you're having whole different problems than I'm having. Let's work on this together. Let's have, like, a weekly call. Let's have something. Because I know for us, that's one of the things that just gets us so excited is I may be bringing a bunch of negativity to our weekly meeting because I've had bad customer support interactions or something that day, or I'm just having a bad day, but you're excited. Like you watched a video that you're like, hey, I saw this SaaS founder talk about this new way of doing growth tactic to grow your email list. You want to try that? I'm like, okay, this has completely shifted in me what I'm thinking about. What's shifting in you?

[00:27:37] Caroline: What is shifting in you? Yeah. And I think there's also tremendous value in that tying it back to the mindset aspect because what I wrote down here is, for me personally, even though I want to acknowledge that this whole shifting your mindset thing or shifting your identity, it's a lot easier said than done. So when I tell you I wake up in the morning. And I'm like, okay, I'm a software co-founder. I'm a software... I'm a SaaS co-founder. I'm a marketer. I'm a SaaS marketer. It's like, that doesn't resonate with me yet because I feel that impostor syndrome, right? Because I just feel like I don't have the years of experience under my belt to be able to feel like that hits me in a true place. But the benefit of working with you is, yeah, but you are there to remind me that I have been doing marketing for over a decade, that I do have all this experience as a designer, that I do have all this experience of watching you with Teachery over the years and strategizing with you. And so in those moments when I doubt myself, I think it can be really helpful to have a buddy who can see you from the outside looking in and going, like, kind of backing you up and being like, okay, I know that this mindset and this identity doesn't land with you yet, but I'm here to cheer you on and encourage you, because also I know the only way to change that imposter syndrome is to do things exactly as that SaaS co-founder in order to feel legitimate and competent and confident.

[00:28:58] Jason: Exactly. And it's know, five years ago or six years ago now, when we started WAIM, you calling yourself a business coach probably felt exactly like it feels calling yourself a SaaS co-founder now. Exactly. And you're like, well, I don't know that I had the experience to do that or whatever. It's like, yeah, but you do. You've done enough things. It's just packaging in that way and then doing that work repetitively. And this is where I obviously just bring the male confidence that I just stupidly, naturally have. But I'm like, yeah, we can do this. I believe that we can do this because we're just as smart as the majority of other people who run software projects, who build them and sell them or whatever, and live great lives doing that. I just fully believe that there's not that much different here. And all we have to do is find our right customer base. We have to find our right messaging. We have to make sure the product is good enough, and then we have to be focusing on doing things to attract more people to this platform.

[00:29:46] Caroline: Yeah. And I also think, what are the ways that you're then cultivating that mindset? So for me, it is, and this is kind of a double edged sword, so you have to be careful here. But it's consuming media about that topic. It is educating myself because to me, kind of immersing myself in that world where I know the language that's spoken and I don't want to be so entrenched in that that I just start thinking like every other SaaS co-founder, I want to retain some of our outsider status so that we can think differently. But part of it is speaking the language and knowing what people are saying so that I feel more competent. And so for you, again, if it's your art thing on the side that you're trying to embody, you're this artist. It's like, okay, is it consuming a few more artist content, or is it taking some classes or just starting to feel like you are immersing yourself in that world so that what you're doing is you're giving your brain some real world, tangible evidence that you are embodying this new identity, and that's going to change the way that you show up to this project so that it takes on more of a primary role in your mind.

[00:30:47] Jason: Yeah, I also just have for years leaned on this, too, which is just this idea of action taking and just like, how much that makes you feel like you've accomplished something, even if maybe the revenue doesn't necessarily pan out.

[00:31:00] Caroline: Totally.

[00:31:00] Jason: So I think for a software project, it's going to be very easy to see the metrics every week. And we check the metrics every week and be like, we're not seeing all that stuff. But it's like, yeah, but look at our list of action steps that we've done. These will add up to something, especially when they are working on the business action steps, not working in the business action steps.

[00:31:18] Caroline: And it's okay if they don't, because like we said, let's say it's the end of 2024. The revenue hasn't budged. But we have a laundry list of things that we tried and experiments we ran and actions we took. At least then I'll be able to look back and say, okay, we gave it a good shot and it added up to the learning that maybe this is the wrong path to go down. And that's okay. But what I don't want is to end this year looking back and being like, well, we didn't do much.

[00:31:43] Jason: Exactly. Which is kind of what we felt like last year.

[00:31:45] Caroline: It's kind of what we felt like last year. And to me, that's the thing that I'm trying to avoid at all costs.

[00:31:51] Jason: Yeah. Okay, so let's move on to the third part of this which is talking about turning vagaries into specifics. And what I wanted to kind of point out about this is that side projects, and I think for a lot of you listening to this, maybe you feel this way, maybe you don't, and you will after I say it, is that your side project can kind of feel nebulous. Like it doesn't feel like it's super specific to who you're targeting, what problem that project solves, or what specific focus it is. And I think even for Teachery, what we're running into is we're looking at this and be like, who is our exact customer? And why are they choosing Teachery? What's the number one reason why? We have our assumptions, but I think when it's a side project, you just don't know. And so I think turning it into a full time project, we want to turn that kind of nebulousness into a specific.

[00:32:41] Caroline: Yeah. And I think why this happens, the metaphor that comes to mind for me is you're just sort of painting in broad strokes because you only have this little amount of time and effort and discipline to put towards this side thing. Because it's just a side thing. It's not a priority.

[00:32:54] Jason: You only get like two minutes to put.

[00:32:56] Caroline: You get two minutes. Yeah, exactly. You're just like scratching in kind of your loose brushstrokes to be like...

[00:33:00] Jason: Happy squirrel over here.

[00:33:01] Caroline: Exactly. You're not painting the detail of every little thing because you don't have the time to. And so you do end up with this, like you said, this vague idea of, oh, I do art, or, oh, I have this ebook that I'm writing, and you're sort of like, well, what is it and who is it for? And how am I marketing it? And so you don't have time to drill down into all those specifics. And so one of the best things that you can do in order to take something that is not a priority and make it a priority is to really get clear and emphasize clarity on who is this for? What actually is it? And we'll talk about in a second where you're trying to go with it. But I think goal setting is like a part of that. So for us, for Teachery, the first place that we're going back to, and this is the same thing we teach inside of Wandering Aimfully unlimited with our onboarding business roadmap, is go back to the foundation. So who are you talking to? Who is your audience? What is the problem you're trying to solve? And so for us, January of this year is really a lot about getting back in touch with our customers, identifying the best customers we have with Teachery.

[00:34:02] Jason: I wouldn't say it's getting back in touch with them.

[00:34:04] Caroline: In touch. It's getting in touch with them.

[00:34:07] Jason: Hey, you're using Teachery. What's up?

[00:34:12] Caroline: What's up? Remember us? Hey, what's up? And so really finding out what solution were they looking for when they found Teachery? Why did they choose Teachery? What problem does it help them solve? What are the best parts about it? What are the things that frustrate them about it? And we don't know that right now. And so we're focusing a lot on customer interviews and surveys and just establishing a line of communication with our customers and that's where we would tell a lot of people to start.

[00:34:39] Jason: Yeah. And I think the reality here is we can share, we have an active group of, let's call it 150, 200 customers that are paying right now for Teachery. That number that I gave you earlier of total, that's overall customers over ten years, but right now it's between 150 and 200. So that's a small pool. And so for you, listening to this with your side project, maybe you've only had 50 people purchase your product, or maybe it's less than that, but maybe you're also someone who's had more than that. And I think the goal is that what you're trying to figure out is what we're trying to figure out is what's the very common specific thread of who is the person? What problem were they looking for when they found your solution of whatever it is? And then why did they buy? Like, what led them to be like, yes, this is a hell yes to move forward. And so for us, we really want to figure that out. I firmly believe that it's going to just reassure a lot of our own assumptions that we have. But I think even that in itself is a huge leap forward because then you go, great. This has confirmed everything that we thought based on customer data. Let's move forward.

[00:35:39] Caroline: And the side part of that, which we didn't even write down, but I think is so important, is not just from like a marketing puzzle strategy perspective, but just from a perspective of your own passion. When you get in touch with customers, when you get in touch with people that you're actually helping, I find that it just fuels you so much because when you're working on business, it can get very easy to get lost in the puzzle of just business. Right. And you can easily forget the whole point of it is to serve people and to help them and to contribute to a bigger mission. And so part of going back to our customers for Teachery or getting in touch with our customers for Teachery is getting me excited for it's not just about Teachery being this side project for us. This is about, it's a utility for people. It helps people monetize their creative skill. It helps people build a flexible online course business, which we have in our own experience seen the benefit that that's had on our life. And so a part of that is just talking to real customers and getting excited again about the mission of Teachery. And so I'm really excited for that part, too.

[00:36:43] Jason: I don't think I know the answer to this question. Have you ever done any type of customer interviews before?

[00:36:48] Caroline: No.

[00:36:49] Jason: Yeah. So I was just thinking, I've only done it one time and it was for Buy My Future.

[00:36:52] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:36:53] Jason: And I did 49 Skype calls.

[00:36:55] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:36:56] Jason: Also dates the time when I did these. And I remember thinking, like, I don't necessarily need to do these. I knew that this idea was going to be interesting and compelling, but I did the calls and it was so interesting to find out. When I told people about the idea, I started hearing how they talked about it, and then I started hearing about everyone wanted a community. They're like, if I'm going to buy this, I hope there's other people like me that I can be around because I don't want to be on Twitter. And this is even back in 2015. So imagine how people feel now. But I think what's going to be really interesting about these calls is you're going to be the one leading the charge on these calls. I'm excited because I talk to Teachery customers every day.

[00:37:32] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:37:32] Jason: Through chat, but I've never gotten on phone calls with them. But I'm excited to see what you feel after that. That now we kind of both have this energy that we're getting from customers in different ways and what that will lead to as kind of fuel to work on the product and work on our plans for.

[00:37:46] Caroline: Exactly. Which parlays nicely into the final step here, which I think is crucial in trying to make your side project more of a full time project.

[00:37:55] Jason: Scooching it.

[00:37:56] Caroline: Just scooch it.

[00:37:56] Jason: Yeah.

[00:37:57] Caroline: And that's just identifying where is it that you want to go? Setting goals for not only just where is it you want to go? Like, what are you actually trying to do with growing it? But why? I think that is really important because just saying to yourself. I mean, maybe this is a good enough reason. I'm not here to judge your reason, but I was just thinking to myself, if you're just like, oh, well, this thing is just a side project and I want to make it bigger. Maybe that's a good enough reason, but I think it's helpful to go, well, why do you want to make it bigger?

[00:38:27] Jason: Yeah. And I think for us, part of the reason why I'll jump a little bit forward here for Teachery is there isn't... a reality to running a monthly coaching business requires us to show up every single month for our members. I don't think that's possible for us ten years from now, especially having kids, and there's going to be a lot less time. And so Teachery is a tool, a utility that people can use without us being there.

[00:38:50] Caroline: Right.

[00:38:51] Jason: And so the reality is trying to look ahead many years and go, well, then this should probably be the thing that generates the bulk of our revenue. And that's not to scare any WAIMers off. We're going to be here for you for many years and providing tons of value. But I think the reality is just looking a little bit further down the road. So we need to start now so that we can be prepared for that shift in a few years.

[00:39:10] Caroline: Exactly. And my way of putting this is, to me it's about diversification of revenue because I don't know what the future holds, but I do know that I want to have options. And different types of businesses give you different types of flexibility.

[00:39:23] Jason: Are you saying that you don't think my baked goods business is going to make enough money?

[00:39:26] Caroline: It certainly could.

[00:39:27] Jason: Yeah. Do you think I charge $1,000 for a sourdough loaf?

[00:39:30] Caroline: I'm sure someone out there does.

[00:39:31] Jason: Just one. Yeah. And I think one of the things you wrote down here that's helpful as well is that not all side projects need to be full time things. And so even for us, we want to give Teachery this full year of effort. But at the end of the year we may realize it's just not meant to be or it doesn't work, or the type of work that we have to do is just not work that we want to do. So we're going to have to pivot to something else, and that's okay. But I really do think it's just one of those things where if you set a goal for yourself of what the side project you want it to become, and we'll specifically say what that is with us for Teachery this year, if you don't hit that, that's okay as well. And as long as you put forth some great effort toward it, you know that, okay, at least I gave this its chance and it wasn't just something that always sat in the back of my mind.

[00:40:15] Caroline: Yeah. So do you want to say what our goal is before we recap?

[00:40:18] Jason: Sure.

[00:40:19] Caroline: Go ahead.

[00:40:20] Jason: So our goal is to double, basically our overall revenue, which kind of doubles our monthly recurring revenue as well. It's a little bit convoluted because when you do software, it's not as clean as just to say, like, I want to have double the amount of customers. But really our goal is to double our revenue this year with Teachery, which will, in essence, double our monthly recurring revenue. So that's basically our goal this year. And it's interesting how that's going to happen because with like an online coaching business type of business, it would be like, hey, well, we just need more people in our launches, but for this, it's like, actually we need more people to sign up every single month because it's a software product. But also we're not doing anything marketing wise for the first month or so. So it can't be like, well, 20 more customers this month would be great. It's like, yeah, but where would they come from? They would come from nowhere.

[00:41:08] Caroline: Yeah. I think what you're trying to hit on there is be realistic. So what we did was we started the year and we said, where would we be happy to end the year with, with Teachery? And it's a little bit weird because we keep Teachery's finances separate. And so it's not as easy if you're running like a lifestyle business, for example, we often tell you, set your enough goal, how much money do you want to make from this business and all of that? We're not taking money out of the business for Teachery, really. So it's a little bit different where our goals for Teachery are more long term. And so the financial goals that we're backing up are for that eventuality. And potentially, where could this lead in terms of us having financial security for retirement and things like that? And so we basically said, what do we feel like is a motivating goal but something that does feel like enough growth, right? It's always with that enough mindset in mind. If we ended this year, what do we think is realistic but motivating and that we would feel could be done in a steady way, not like hyper growth? You say double and it sounds like a lot, but you're like, well, when you're just doubling your 140 monthly customers, it's okay.

[00:42:18] Jason: Yeah. And I think this is just like, it's such a reality moment for a lot of people when they go, okay, I'm so excited to take my side project and scooch it forward. I'm going to 10x this sucker this year. I see other people make six figures with this type of business. So that's what I'm going to do this year. But you're going from like three figures. You made $500 in the first year. That's a very big, huge jump. And so I think for us, this is a very realistic jump that we're trying to make. And that's not to say you can't make that type of jump at all. I'm just saying, for us, what we wanted to do was create a goal that, like you said, was motivating but also felt very realistic.

[00:42:53] Caroline: Realistic. So what we did was we took that final goal and then we backed it out by month. And we didn't do that in a linear way like Jason was saying. We said, okay, it'll probably take us one to two months to really get those customer interviews going to get any. I mean, the boulder is not moving.

[00:43:08] Jason: It seems like it is just stuck.

[00:43:10] Caroline: It is stuck. So it's going to be a very slow amount of growth in the beginning, and then hopefully by the second half of the year, it picks up steam a little bit and the growth percentage month over month is higher. Right. That's what you hope. Because that's the whole idea of this boulder is picking up steam. And so we backed that out. So we have monthly milestones and that's just to help keep us on track. But now we know, okay, I think the value in being able to say this is where I want to take my side project to a full time project, back that out by month, because then you can realistically go, okay, if I'm just doing the scooch tactic where I just have one day a week that I'm working on this, but I'm supposed to get ten more customers per week, do I really think that one day a week is going to get me ten more customers a week? You can start to basically kind of contrast your goals per month or per week with your time that you've allocated going back to that first step we had about your schedule and going, does that feel like they're in alignment? Does that feel possible and realistic? And if not, then maybe you need to carve out more time or you need to shave down your goals and to do it a much more slow and steady approach. And that's why we always do those in tandem is those financial goals with the schedule and time and effort that we're putting forth. So just to recap, if you are in the position like us, where you are trying to take something that has been a lower priority and make it a primary focus this year, our recommendations are to, number one, look at how you're prioritizing your time and to give your schedule in your schedule, give that new project that primary focus more of a priority. The second tip is to really embody the mindset that comes along with making that primary focus your new identity. What are some actions you can take and some cognitive things that you can do in order to more fully embody that mindset? The third one is to turn vagaries into specifics. So does it mean interacting with your customers? Or is it just about sitting down and carving out some thinking time to say, what's my clarity around who am I talking to and what problem my side project actually solves? And carving out that time to then number four, identify what your goals are, where you want to take the business, why you want to take it there, and break that down into smaller milestone chunks. And then circle back to number one and evaluate. Do my goals match my time that I have allotted?

[00:45:34] Jason: Nice. If you are curious, are we going to talk about Teachery consistently this year on the podcast?

[00:45:41] Caroline: If you want to follow along on the journey as we try to grow this business.

[00:45:45] Jason: The answer is yes. We believe at this very moment we are going to do one additional email to our email list and one additional podcast episode to you all per month.

[00:45:55] Caroline: Correct.

[00:45:55] Jason: So if you want to get on our Wandering Aimfully newsletter, that is where we'll be sending out the extra newsletter that will have the link to the podcast episode, wanderingaimfully.com/newsletter. And then you don't have to subscribe to any other podcast. You're already subscribed if you're listening to this. But if for some reason you're not, then go ahead and subscribe. And once a month, probably toward the end of the month, we will have kind of a monthly check in for Teachery, a whole separate episode, a little bit shorter. What did we work on? What didn't go well? What went well? So we kind of want to just share the journey of building a SaaS product from it's already started. It had some momentum, but the boulder has stopped rolling. What are we doing to try and increase that momentum and hit our goals?

[00:46:32] Caroline: And don't worry. If you're someone listening to this and you don't have a software product, a lot of these lessons are going to be transferable to if you have an online course business, even if you have a client business, just an online business in general. A lot of what we're working on can be transferable to your business as well. So I think you'll get a lot of valuable nuggets out of that. And if you're just someone who, like us, loves the nitty gritty of business, so often I go looking for people who tell me what you worked on this week, tell me what your challenges were, and you just can't find a lot of that nitty gritty stuff.

[00:47:02] Jason: And also, like, relatable. You run like a $20 million business with 100 employees. I can't relate. That's not what I want. I want to find these small businesses. So that's us sharing those things. Also, I believe we'll have a new podcast coming out, probably a whole separate podcast called the Creami Cast, where we'll just talk about and you'll be able to listen to us put together these ice cream recipes.

[00:47:23] Caroline: It's just the sounds of us putting together.

[00:47:25] Jason: Yeah. I'm going to put a mic in our kitchen and just record us making ice cream and you just get to hear us talking about it.

[00:47:32] Caroline: If I have to hear you say Creami all the time, it's going to be a no for me.

[00:47:34] Jason: Yeah, that's interesting. It's going to be a no for me to say it all the time. I'm jokingly saying it now, but I don't like...

[00:47:39] Caroline: We need to come up with a new word that's not that.

[00:47:42] Jason: Right now, if you had to decide yes or no on buying the Creami, I'm not going to hold you to this in a court of law, is it yes or no?

[00:47:47] Caroline: I'm interested.

[00:47:48] Jason: All right. By the way, if you have one of those, send us a message. I'd love to know if you like it or not.

[00:47:53] Caroline: Do you like it? Is it worth it? Are we getting TikTok influenced two years after the fact? Because that would be... That would sound like us.

[00:48:00] Jason: Okay. All right, that's it for this episode. Talk to you soon. Bye.

[00:48:04] Caroline: Bye.